Barbarian Conqueror King (Dinosaurs & Sorcery ACKS)

General ACKS Forums General Discussion
9

Here's my thoughts:

1. The commenter is correct that ACKS is based on assumptions of labor productivity, food price, and so on, that are based in the historical pre-industrial world. To the extent that a campaign setting widely varies from the historical pre-industrial world, ACKS needs to be modified.

2. Whether you use ACKS or another system, if you want the trade/realm type rules we offer, you will have to answer basic questions like "how much money does a peasant earn" "what items are available in a city" and "how much does a horse cost". f you want the setting to be coherent, you have to make assumptions and build from them. The virtue of starting with ACKS is that you are starting from a functioning set of assumptions and can tweak them. If you start with other systems, they are generally less coherent.

3. The problem with "An Echo Resounding" lies at the interface between its realm mechanics and the underlying game's mechanics. For instance, if you find a dragon hoard, and want to convert that into "+4 Wealth" the system doesn't provide a clear interface to do so. It's left to the Judge to decide. The reason ACKS is built on a hardcore set of assumptions is specifically to be able to answer questions like "how much is a dragon's hoard worth relative to the income of the local duke". 

4. The assumptions in ACKS are probably more robust than the commenter suggests. If your standard is the rate of change of the modern era, the most surprising thing about human history 10,000 BC - to 1400 AD is how slow the progress of technology is. ACKS can model 1000 BC, 0 BC, and 1000 AD with respectable efficacy. As long as your "Dark Sun"-ish world is closer to a pre-industrial world, ACKS will work well. I think ACKS would have more trouble with, e.g. Eberron. 

 

10

ACKS has an economy which is self-consistent and scalable to different levels. You can skin that however you want, if your goal is to have an interesting end-game that mixes well with the early-game.

ACKS also puts a number of the initial assumptions under your complete control. For example:

Athas: multiply the cost of metal goods by x100, and use the centralized settlement pattern (2 rows) on p. 231. This—without any further work by you!—makes certain items harder to get in smaller towns, and produces large city-states while stripping urban population from the more difficult to sustain villages and towns.

Can you make it more complicated? Yes, but you don’t need to, if your goal is a plausible and flavorful setting with a fun end-game to match the early- and mid-games.

The post arguing against ACKS seems to imply that you ought to run a proper and correct economic simulation—for a setting for which there is no historical antecedent!—or give up. I think that’s ridiculous.

(I also think that An Echo solves the “some GM calls required” problem by saying, “Okay, now everything is a GM call, but we’ve made things simple and bland so the GM calls are easier to make.”)

11

Thanks for the input - I’m sticking with ACKS!

My setting has a lot in common with the Mesopotamian (or Levantine) city-states of the Ancient World, as well as the Mesoamerican city-states (especially when Lizardmen are concerned. If ACKS can model these, it can model my setting well enough.

Think Athas with jungles and swamps instead of deserts and with more common metals.

12

Talked this over with my fiancée. Turns out she bought my sales pitch and wants to play this kind of weird sword and sorcery now, and ACKS: Dark Project later!

And out first game is set to our anniversary, geeky couple that we are. So I have to have the basic campaign stuff, adventure and miniatures ready before March the 22nd!

13

That's awesome! Does she have a character rolled up?
 

14

Not yet, she’s still thinking about what to play, I’ll give her the ACKS book and the Companion to thumb through today :slight_smile:

15

I’m thinking about using the ancient Levant, Egypt and Mesopotamia as inspiration to the Human city-states of this setting (while the more civilizaed of the Lizardmen will have Mesoamerican inspiration). This does fit very well with sword and sorcery. Both sword&sandal and sword&sorcery go hand-in-hand with this ancient world of city-states, commerce, vengeful gods and towering ziggurats.

This setting’s equivalent of ACKS’ Zahar would be an Egyptian-style kingdom with pyramids, undead and huge opulence coupled with enormous stagnation. Now all that remains of them are tombs to loot, guarded by undead!

The setting’s history goes roughly like this:

First were the Serpentmen, who worshipped terrible Cthonic gods. They made the Lizardmen as slaves by crossing their own blood with that of giant lizards. Then the Lizardmen, led by a messiah of a new, Lawful goddess, rebelled, smashed their old rulers, and built a sprawling civilization in the tropical south.

But then came Men, from across the sky, and their arrival upon a shooting star shattered the Lizardmen Empire. Men also arrived in bad shape, and, at first, regressed to savage nomadism, sometimes used as slaves or mercenaries by the Lizardmen city-states which rose after of the Great Cataclysm. But some Lizardmen and many men, without the guidance of the old Lizard Empire’s Matriarch, turned back to the Serpentmen’s dead gods, and their bloody rituals.

Out of the chaos then rose the great Empire of Man, upon the River of the Desert, worshipping Chaotic gods from beyond the grave and investing their resources in their immortal dead kings much more than in their living subjects. But the empire, after a millennium, eventually stagnated and fell back into barbarism, leaving behind ruined temple-yards and ancient tombs filled with gold and peril.

Finally, in the more temperate North, beyond the Great Desert and its River, tribes once subjugated by the Empire of Man won their freedom, establishing their city-states. Some worship the Lawful gods of Man, while others pay homage to the blood-soaked idols of the long-dead Lizardmen.

16

Let’s start naming stuff:

Human name for the Lizardman tropical region (south third of the map): Punt
Old Human empire: Sakkara
Human City-States: Irem (in the desert), Yimara, Khishron, Zarnas (only remaining city in Sakkara)
Lizardman City-States: Cibola (Human name for the richest city), Tollan (ruined old capital), City of the Sunken Moon (Chaotic! Beware), City of the Crescent Sun

Lawful Gods:
Anat: Goddess of Love and War (followed by Blade-Dancers)
Ashera: Mother Goddess; Goddess of Nature, Birth and Fertility
Eshmun: God of Medicine, Herbs and Healing
Hadad: God of Rains, Storms, Lightning and Agriculture
Ixchala: Lizardman quasi-monotheistic goddess of birth, death and rebirth
Khasis: God of Craftmen
Nikkal: Goddess of Agriculture
Shalim: God of Dawn and Dusk
Shapashu: Sun Goddess
Yam: God of Seas and Rivers
Yarkhibol: Moon God

Neutral Gods:
Mawat: God of Death

Chtonic Gods:
Atlach-Nacha: Chaotic God of Spiders
Bokrug: Chaotic god of Lizards
Cthugha AKA Moloch: Chaotic god of Fire; Lizardmen call him Xiutecutli
Dagon: Chaotic god of Fish and Fish-Men
Hastur: Chaotic god of Sorcery
K’tulu: Chaotic god of Oceans and Rains; Lizardmen call him Kutlaloc
Shubbniggurath: Chaotic Fertility/Nature goddess; Lizardmen call her Tocia
Yig: Chaotic Father of Serpents; chief god of the Serpentmen; Lizardmen call him Mexcoatl
Yogsothoth: Chaotic god of Knowledge; Lizardmen call him Xolotal

17

History in four paragraphs:

First were the Serpentmen, who worshipped terrible Cthonic gods. Their empire was forged in eons before the dawn of history and lasted for millennia. In search for slaves, they bred themselves with giant lizards to produce the hardy Lizardmen, and, for ages, lorded over the Lizardmen masses while constantly honing their blasphemous sorcery. But then, millennia before our time, the great goddess Ixchala revealed herself to a Lizardwoman known only as the Prophetess. With her Lawful divine inspiration, the Prophetess roused the Lizardmen masses in rebellion, shattering their chains of old and overthrowing their masters into oblivion. Freedom was won; and the great Lizard Empire arouse in the jungles, with the Matriarch ruling it with an iron fist from the top of the Great Pyramid in fabled Tollan.

But then came Men, from across the sky, and their arrival upon a shooting star shattered the Lizard Empire. Men also arrived in disarray, and, at first, regressed to savage nomadism, sometimes used as slaves or mercenaries by the Lizardmen city-states which arose from the ashes of the Great Cataclysm. But some Lizardmen and many men, without the guidance of the old Lizard Empire’s Matriarch, turned back to the dead gods of the Serpentmen, and their bloody rituals.

Out of the chaos then rose Sakkara, the great Empire of Man. It grew upon the River of the Desert, worshipping Chaotic gods from beyond the grave and investing their resources in their immortal dead kings much more than in their living subjects. But even great Sakkara, after three thousand years, eventually stagnated and fell back into barbarism, leaving behind ruined temple-yards and ancient tombs filled with gold and peril, as well as the dying city of Zarnas, where the immortal Last Pharaoh rules, in name only, over his ruined empire.

When Sakkara fell, its former vassals to the North, beyond the Great Desert and its River, won their freedom, establishing the new City-States, a mere shadow of Sakkara’s old glory. Some worship the Lawful Gods of Man, while others pay homage to the blood-soaked idols of the long-dead Serpentmen. Meanwhile, the ancient Lizardmen Cities of the tropical South squabble and scheme, some worshipping the Lawful Ixchala, others following the dark Cthonic path of the Serpentmen gods of old.

18

Updated List:

Lawful Human Gods:
Anat: Goddess of Love and War* (followed by Blade-Dancers)
Ashera: Mother Goddess; Goddess of Nature, Birth and Fertility; El-Elyon’s consort
El-Elyon: Father of the Gods; God of Mankind and Civilization; Ashera’s husband
Eshmun: God of Medicine, Herbs and Healing
Hadad: God of Rains, Storms, Lightning and Agriculture
Ishtar: Goddess of Love
Khasis: God of Craftmen
Nikkal: Goddess of Agriculture
Shalim: God of Dawn and Dusk
Shapashu: Sun Goddess
Yarkhibol: Moon God

Lawful Lizardman Goddess:
Ixchala: Lizardman quasi-monotheistic goddess of lizards, dinosaurs, birth, death and rebirth

Neutral Gods:
Mawat: God of Death and Judgement
Yam: God of Seas and Rivers; also God of Judges

Chtonic Gods:
Atlach-Nacha: Chaotic God of Spiders
Bokrug: Chaotic god of Lizards
Moloch AKA Cthugha: Chaotic god of Fire and Wealth; Lizardmen call him Xiutecutli
Dagon: Chaotic god of Fish and Fish-Men
Hastur: Chaotic god of Sorcery and Undeath
Rahab AKA K’tulu: Chaotic god of Oceans and Rains; Lizardmen call him Kutlaloc
Shubbniggurath: Chaotic Fertility/Nature goddess; Lizardmen call her Tocia
Yig: Chaotic Father of Serpents; chief god of the Serpentmen; Lizardmen call him Mexcoatl
Yogsothoth: Chaotic god of Knowledge; Lizardmen call him Xolotal

19

Some initial thoughts on classes in this setting:

Allowed Classes:
Anti-Paladin
Assassin
Barbarian
Bard
Bladedancer (follows Anat)
Explorer
Cleric
Fighter
Lizardman Gladiator (AKA Thrassian Gladiator)
Mage
Mystic
Paladin
Priestess
Sakkaran Ruinguard (AKA Zaharan Ruinguard BUt with an Egyptian flavour)
Shaman
Thief
Venturer
Warlock
Witch

Disallowed Classes:
Dwarven Craftpriest (no Dwarves in this setting)
Dwarven Delver (no Dwarves in this setting)
Dwarven Fury (no Dwarves in this setting)
Dwarven Machinist (no Dwarves in this setting)
Dwarven Vaultguard (no Dwarves in this setting)
Elven Courtier (no Elves in this setting)
Elven Enchanter (no Elves in this setting)
Elven Nightblade (no Elves in this setting)
Elven Ranger (no Elves in this setting)
Elven Spellsword (no Elves in this setting)
Gnomish Trickster (no Gnomes in this setting)
Nobiran Wonderworker (no Nobirans in this setting)

New Classes:
Lizardman Hunter
Lizardman Priest
Lizardman Warrior
Lizardman Witch-Doctor

20

Here is my blog post about Lizardmen in this setting:
http://spacecockroach.blogspot.co.il/2013/02/lizardmen-in-barbarian-conqueror-king.html

21

Areas on the map:
Enyom (rocky badlands to the northwest)
Punt (fertile Lizardman lands in the south)
Mala (jungles southeast of the Lizardman lands)
Kanahu (civilized Human lands in the north)
Sakkara (dead desert empire in the middle)
Queddar (deeper desert away from the Desert River)

Languages:
Kinhan, spoken in Kanahu, uses the Lower Sakkaran alphabet
Common Sakkaran, still spoken in Sakkara, has alphabetic writing
Ancient Sakkaran, used by necromancers and Sakkaran nobles, uses hiroglyphs
Queddari, spoken by nomads on Queddar, uses the Lower Sakkaran alphabet
Lizardman, spoken in Punt and by most Lizardmen, uses pictographs
Serpentine, once used by the Serpentmen and now rare, uses pictographs
Chaos-Tongue, used by various Beastmen & cultists, has no written equivalent

22

Hmmm… I’ve been tossing around the idea of converting the Wilderlands of High Fantasy (OD&D version) to ACKS, and the centralized settlement pattern is just the right tool, methinks.

23

This setting sounds awesome! I love sword and sorcery. I love humanocentric settings with hideous ancient races and lost technology. You also clearly draw inspiration from the Mesapotamian myths I do.

 

 

24

Thanks!

The specific myth I draw upon is the Levantine myth - which is related to the Mesopotamian myth, of course.

Oh, and Sakkara, this setting equivalent of Zahar, is Egyptian-inspired - complete with an obssession with death and afterlife (and undeath) and a lot of tombs to loot (with undead guardians and traps).

25

I’m thinking about adding some “normal” Earth animals to my Human areas, especially domesticated beasts and some pests (cats, dogs, mice, rats, sheep, goats, cattle and horses). They probably came with the Humans when they “fell upon a shooting star”. Native fauna of this world is reptilian and/or insectile, though… And almost all predators, except for cats and feral dogs are reptilian or insectile.

26

Given that your setting is based on Levantine myth and your handle is Golan, can I safely guess you live in Israel somewhere?...

27

Yes, I do, in Rehovot (20 minutes by train from Tel-Aviv).

28

Ah, cool! As an undergraduate I studied military history with a lot of work on the Arab-Israeli Wars. My senior project was a wargame to assess what would happen if Israel abandoned the Golan Heights and was invaded. I've always wanted to get out and see the land for real, but haven't quite managed to do so...