Reaction Rolls - Modifiers and "Stacking"

Fair enough, but I think that’s awesome! In a world where CHA is considered a dump stat, or you’re playing 3d6 in order and your only high stat is CHA, having a crazy-high CHA and “wasting” your proficiencies on social skills /should/ have a noteworthy effect.

That said, having the face out front seems like the way the way things should be. Hard to impress the enemy from three rows back, behind the guy with the torch. :slight_smile:

I totally agree and think this is my least favorite aspect of the game. Mystic Aura is the big culprit, as I can say, you get Seduction OR Indimidation OR Diplomacy, but that one is a “generic” +2 to everything… Which is just lame, especially when you can have a +3 CHA, +2 MA, +2 Diplomacy and get +7 to a 2d6 bell curve that’s average is 7… Which means, you’re averaging 14 and “charming” everyone? Wtf…?

Perhaps reduce all those bonuses to +1 and apply only a single +1? Going from a 12 CHA to a 16 for one proficiency seems excessive to me.

Get rid of Mystic Aura’s bonus altogether and merely have it grant “Charm” on a 12+ as a bonus.

Yep. It seems the problem arises from the non-CHA stats and proficiencies affecting a flat d20 roll most of the time while CHA and related proficiencies affect a 2d6 bell curve instead. That would seem to justify reducing the max CHA stat bonus to +2 (+1 seems a bit harsh), and the proficiencies/MA to +1. This would make CHA and related bonuses operate differently than other stats, but CHA has a different resolution system as well.

This seems like a good idea.

I agree. I especially like the idea of Mystic Aura simply making a charm effect possible.

I think I’m going to try keeping the bonuses as is, but making a few changes:

1 - The initial reaction roll is unmodified if the players do not get to speak first. (I roll encounter initiative, just an unmodified 1d6 per side to determine the order of back and forth exchanges.)
2 - The max bonus to any one reaction roll is +4.
3 - The reaction chart from Mentzer basic set is used as it provided weighted responses based on initial reactions throughout the exchange.

The other possibility I’m toying with is maxing the social proficiencies simply allow extra rerolls on the reaction is appropriate. I don’t mind these social abilities being useful, but I don’t want the modifiers dominating the distribution of responses.

I have been working on some advanced rules for Reaction Rolls to address these problems.

RULES

  1. Make an initial Reaction Roll using either the DIPLOMACY INTIMIDATION or SEDUCTION modifiers, depending on the context and the player’s stated stances and actions. The player character’s roleplay should determine which applies.
  2. Additional reaction rolls modify the attitude attained by the first reaction roll.
  3. An additional reaction roll (of any type) may be made after 1 round of interaction. A second reaction roll (of any type) may be made after 1 minute (6 rounds) of interaction. A third reaction roll may be made after 1 turn of interaction. A fourth reaction roll may be made after 1 hour of interaction. Additional reaction rolls require 1 hour of interaction, but cannot be made more than once per day.

DIPLOMACY Modifiers
Alignment
Character believed to be Lawful; target is Lawful or Neutral +1
Character believed to be Lawful; target is Chaotic -1
Character believed to be Chaotic; target is Lawful or Neutral -2
Character’s race is a historical enemy of target -2

Location
Character is trespassing in target’s lair -1
Character is in own lair +1

Authority
Character has legal authority over target (lord, guard, etc) +2 or more
Character owes target favors -1/unrequited favor
Target has authority over character -1 or more
Target owes character favors +1/unrequited favor

Proficiencies
Character has Charisma Modifier +Modifier
Character has Diplomacy and is attempting to parley +2
Character has Mystic Aura +2

Threat
Character is brandishing weapon -1
Target believes character has harmed friends -2
Target has witnessed or has evidence that character harm friends -5
Target has been subject to previous intimidation attempt by character -1/prior intimidation

Relationship
Target is already Hostile -2
Target is already Unfriendly -1
Target is already Indifferent +1

Reaction to Diplomacy
Adjusted Roll Result
2- Hostile, attacks // shifts 2 attitudes negative
3-5 Unfriendly, may attack // shifts 1 attitude negative
6-8 Neutral, uncertain // shifts 1 attitude towards neutral
9-11 Indifferent, uninterested // shifts 1 attitude positive
12+ Friendly, helpful // shifts 2 attitudes toward positive

EXAMPLE: A party of 1st level adventurers has just slain five orcs. Their bodies litter the floor and the adventurers’ weapons are covered with orc-gore. When ten more orcs enter the room, the adventurers opt to parley. The paladin (CHA 18, Mystic Aura, Diplomacy, +7 total) steps forward. “We come in peace!” he says in orcish.

The characters are believed to be of Lawful alignment and the target is Chaotic (-1); the character’s are trespassing in the target’s lair (-1); the characters are brandishing weapons (-1); the targets have evidence that the character harmed his friends (-5), for a total of -8. The total modifier is therefore +7-8=-1.

The Judge rolls 2d6-1, and gets a 9. The total of 8 results in a “Neutral” response. “If you come in peace, why’d you kill our friends?” says the orc. The paladin and the orc now begin to interact (1 combat round/10 seconds). The paladin continues diplomacy, saying “They attacked us! It must have been a mistake. Let’s talk to your chief to sort this out.”

The Judge nods and rolls 2d6+8-7; the dice yield an unpleasant result of 3. This modifies to a 2, resulting in a shift in attitude by two categories, from “Neutral” to “Hostile”. The orcs draw their weapons, shouting “He wants to kill the chief!”

Let’s assume instead that the Judge rolled an 11, modified to 10. This shifts the orc’s attitude by one category, to “Indifferent”. The orc gang leader says, “Eh, Aghrimun always was stupid, knew he’d get himself killed some day. Not sure I wanna bother the chief right now, but you can go find him yourself if you want.”

The paladin decides to continue parleying. This will take 1 minute (6 rounds of interaction). His modifier is now 2d6+8-6, because he gains a +1 from the target being Indifferent. The paladin decides to make fun of Aghrimum’s weakness and then says they should all go have a laugh about it with the chief. The dice yield a result of 5, modified to a 7, resulting in a shift in attitude by one category towards “Neutral”. This reverts the orcs towards Neutral. “I ain’t got no interest in cracking jokes with the likes of you,” says the orc gangleader. “Get out of here before I decide I want to crack your skull.”

INTIMIDATION Modifiers
Character and party members outnumber target(s) +1
Character and party members outnumber target(s) by 3:2 or more +2
Character and party members outnumber target(s) by 3:1 or more +5
Character is in own lair +1
Character is brandishing weapon +1
Character is brandishing magic items +1
Character has target at disadvantage (blackmail, tied up) +2 or more
Character has legal authority over target +2 or more
Character is significantly higher level than target (3+ HD) +2

Target
Target’s Morale Score -score
Target has witnessed character kill or torture target’s associates +1
Target is in own lair -1
Target is armed -1
Target has spells or magic items available -1
Target and friends outnumber character and party members -1
Target and friends outnumber character and party members by 3:2 or more -2*
Target and friends outnumber character and party members by 3:1 or more -5*
Target has character at disadvantage (trump card, helpless) -5
Target has legal authority over character -2 or more
Target is significantly higher level than character (3+ HD) -2
Target believes he will suffer loss of face if submits -2 or more
Target believes he will be horrendously punished or killed if he submits -5 or more**
*If target is in lair, include number in lair as part of friends
**“The Dark Lord will do far worse things to me than you ever would” factor

Proficiencies
Character has Charisma Modifier +Modifier
Character has Intimidation and either legal authority, outnumber, or outlevels target +2
Character has Mystic Aura +2

Relationship
Target is already Hostile -2
Target is already Unfriendly -1
Target is already Fearful +1

Reaction to Intimidation
Adjusted Roll Result
2- Hostile, attacks
3-5 Unfriendly, may attack
6-8 Neutral, uncertain
9-11 Fearful, attempts to withdraw/escape if possible
12+ Cowed, helpful

EXAMPLE: A party of 1st level adventurers has just slain five orcs. Their bodies litter the floor and the adventurers’ weapons are covered with orc-gore. When ten more orcs enter the room, the adventurers opt to parley. The thief (CHA 18, Mystic Aura, Intimidation, +7 total) steps forward. “Drop your weapons if you don’t want the same to happen to you, bitches” he says in orcish.

The characters are brandishing weapons (+1) and have some visible magic items (+1) but are not of substantially higher level and have no legal authority (0). The orcs are in their own lair (-1), are brandishing weapons (-1), and including friends in their lair outnumber the characters by more than 3:1 (-5). However they can see that the PCs have killed some friends (+1). Their chieftain is alive, giving them ML +2 (-2). The total modifiers are +7+1+1-1-1-5+1=+1.

The Judge rolls 2d6+1, and gets an 11. The adjusted total of 12 results in a “Cowed” response. The orcs drop their weapons. “We surrender!” they shout, dropping their weapons. “Take us to your chief,” the thief orders.

The characters reach the orc chief and seek to intimidate him as well. “Time to leave these caves, chief. This place is ours now,” says the thief. The characters are brandishing weapons (+1) and have some visible magic items (+1) but have no legal authority (0). The orc chief is in his own lair (-1), brandishing a weapon (-1), and has troops that outnumber the characters by more than 3:1 (-5). He knows that the PCs have killed some friends (+1). But he is 4HD, substantially higher level than the party (-1), has access to a witch doctor (-1), and will suffer loss of face if he submits to the adventurers (-2). With the chief alive, the orc morale is +2 (-2). The total modifiers are +7+1+1-1-1-5+1-1-1-2-2=-3.

The Judge rolls 2d6-1 and gets a 6. The adjusted total of 3 results in an “Unfriendly” response from the chief and other new orcs in the room. “I’ll give you 10 seconds to get the hell out of my caverns, and then I start eating human-flesh,” says the Chief.

Meanwhile, the same result means that the currently cowed orcs have their attitudes adjusted downward by one category, from “Cowed” to “Fearful”. They begin to slink towards the sides of the room, hoping no one pays attention to them.

SEDUCTION Modifiers
Age
Character is of younger age category than target attracted to youthful mates +1/category
Character is of younger age category than target attracted to mature mates -1/category
Character is of older age category than target attracted to mature mates +1/category
Character is of older age category than target attracted to mature mates +1/category
*Age categories only apply within Youth to Old range.

Status
Character has higher social status than target +1/noble rank or equivalent
Character is substantially higher level than target +1
Character is substantially lower level than target -1

Kink
Character is of a race which particularly appeals to target +1 or more
Character is of a race which is unappealing to target -1 or more
Character’s clothing is particularly appealing to target +1 or more
Character’s clothing is particularly unappealing to target -1 or more
Character’s physical traits are particularly appealing to target +1 or more
Character’s physical traits are particularly unappealing to target -1 or more
Character’s behavioral traits are particularly appealing to target -1 or more
Character’s behavioral traits are particularly unappealing to target -1 or more

Privacy
Character and target are alone +1
Characters and target are in front of target’s friends -1

Proficiencies
Character demonstrates Performance or Art proficiency +1
Character has Mystic Aura +2
Character has Seduction and otherwise at least +1 in modifiers +2

Relationship History
Character already Infuriated -2
Character already Insulted -1
Character already Attracted +1
Character already Smitten +2
Character has taken advantage of target’s friends in the past -1
Character has taken advantage of target in the past -2
Target would be at personal risk from liaison with character -2 or more

Reaction to Seduction
Adjusted Roll Result
2- Hostile, attacks/insults/has friend beat you up
3-5 Unfriendly, may attack/insult/have friend beat you up
6-8 Neutral, indifferent
9-11 Attracted, hints at interest
12+ Smitten, helpful

Sweet Jeebus! I made the die roll and predicted you’d have a chart, but this

That’s true, but, you didn’t have the advanced version of the Random Determination of Tables table, which clearly states as Alex has the “Game Designer” (+2) proficiency, compared with Reaction Rolls being a Thorny (-2) problem and are of Gygaxian Origin (-1) the total modifier is a -1, and on the Advanced table any result under 5 indicates there may be an entire rules subsystem introduced to the Design Combat Round.

My takeaway from this, of course, is that Alex is already planning Advanced Adventurer Conqueror King, or AACKS, and we should start bugging him about it immediately, alongside the Auran book, Lairs & Encounters, D@W:Naval, and whatever else I’m forgetting while making this incredibly jokey joke and don’t be mad, Alex.

:wink:

LOL, you guys crack me up.

Seriously, I had intended to put these mechanics into Lairs and Encounters.

There’s no intention on my part to EVER write an Advanced ACKS. I expect the game will expand in a manner similar to Classic Traveller, with supplements available that offer more depth for particular game mechanics.

At present Lairs & Encounters has the following new rule sub-sections:

  • Taming & Training Monsters
  • Young Monsters
  • Proficiencies for Monsters
  • Ability Scores for Monsters
  • Searching a Hex
  • Stocking a Hex
  • Encounter Listings (~ 150)

Possible additions:

  • Reaction Rolls rules
  • Create-a-Monster rules
  • Monster Trophies rules

Our cunning ploy bears fruit, and that fruit is juicy upcoming product!

  • Young Monsters

Orc babies! The blogosphere will be all aflutter; some may clutch pearls, fainting couches shall be reached. :wink:

  • Searching/Stocking a Hex
  • Encounter Listings

Very much looking forward to this.

  • Create-a-Monster Rules

Any chance this will dip into custom race creation, as you’ve touched on in other threads?

  • Monster Trophies

I can’t even begin to guess. May have forgotten if it’s come up elsewhere in the forum.

This looks real good Alex.

Looks great! This title is probably the book I am most looking forward to.

SooOOOoooo…is it done yet?
ducks and runs for cover

Lairs & Encounters sounds great! Will it include mechanisms for clearing a hex?

It has rules for stocking a hex with an appropriate number of lairs, and then it has rules for searching for the lairs in a hex.

These additional rules look helpful. Although I’m not sure if I understand the new limitations on Seduction and Intimidate. Why change them to only work when you already have an advantage?

Also what is your definition of parley for diplomacy? Its various definitions include: conversation generally, more formal diplomat level interactions, public debates, the discussion of peace terms, and a thin flat type of gingerbread (seriously!).

This looks super nifty, but I can’t imagine using this at a game table, except maybe in the most complex of negotiations. Even then, tracking the histories with modifiers for each PC and NPC they deal with… oh my…

I wouldn’t mind seeing a more streamlined version of these rules that takes into account NPC starting disposition. But, consulting this chart just makes my eyes glaze over. :slight_smile:

wmarshal, yeah, I was thinking allow full CHA mod, but +1 for one of the three proficiencies (diplomacy, seduction, intimidation, depending on circumstances) and then allow mystic aura to charm on a 12+.

Therefore, a character with +3 Cha and +1 to a proficiency means a +4 maximum reaction roll. They still need a better than average roll if they have MA.

Thinking more on this. What I think I’d like to see instead of more modifiers is custom reaction tables similar to how the Loyalty for henchmen works.

Perhaps a table for Diplomacy, Seduction and Intimidation that ranges from 2-12 but gives varying results based on roll. For example:

Intimidation involves the violence or threat of violence to coax answers and intel out of creatures. Like normal reaction rolls, roll 2d6 and add Charisma modifier, apply Intimidation proficiency bonus and add any other modifiers based around circumstances. The Judge should make the roll secretly and then roleplay the result.

Intimidation
2- The PC can get no further information, even if they harm or threaten the victim further (no further reaction rolls to intimidate).
3-5 The PC gets nothing, but may get another reaction roll if actual physical or psychological harm is done (make another reaction roll in this case).
6-8 The PC gets nothing, but the mere threat of violence grants another reaction roll.
9-11 The PC gets answers to 1d4 specific questions, though this information could be false, truth or a good mix of both. A follow-up intimidation roll can be used to press an answer.
12+ The PC gets the victim to spill their guts. They tell them everything. However, it is only truthful if the victim has not been harmed thus far.

I think your proposed rules may be too involved for many to commonly use at the table. I try to run my games at a fairly fast pace, and I can’t see myself using these. From a tinkerer’s perspective I do admire the breadth of situations they’re trying to cover, but they aren’t very practical for me. Other’s mileage may vary.

I’ve expanded on this idea a bit. Input welcome.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aye45toVJRCO592PYD0t15FWTtRocEOtWP5ohQamcoQ/pub