Flat Thief Abilities

whatever the rules as written or intended may be, to me it seems a bad distinction considering most spells don’t work that way. When you learn fireball at level 3 it doesn’t do “1d6 per level since you’ve known fireball”, and one is clearly a lot more powerful.

I haven’t had the chance to read the entire thread yet, but fascinating stuff. Just throwing this into the ring in the meantime:

Reduce all the Thief skill throws by 6. Then introduce a difficulty scale:

0 = easy
2 = moderate
4 = hard
6 = very hard

The above values work just like AC (in fact they’re modeled exactly after the classic armor types). I don’t know exactly what you do with the climbing skill though, since it starts out so low to begin with. Overall, it would help low-level thieves without impacting higher-level ones very much and it give the GM a gauge to give the player a clue as to how hard a given attempt would be.

After reviewing the discussion and the various house-rules linked above, I think I am going to test the following in my next game(s).

UPDATED RULES
Encumbrance and Thievery: Thieves benefit from being light on their feet. If the character’s encumbrance is 5 stones or less, he gains a +2 bonus on throws to hide in shadows and move silently. If the character’s encumbrance is 2 stones or less, the bonus is increased to +4. The bonuses do not apply to hijinks.

Open Locks: Each attempt to pick a lock requires 10 minutes. A thief may try again if he fails to pick a lock. However, if a thief rolls a natural 1 while attempting to pick a lock, he has broken his thieves’ tools.

Remove Traps: Each attempt to disarm a trap requires 10 minutes. A thief may try again if he fails to disarm a trap. However, if a thief rolls a natural 1 while attempting to disarm a trap, he has set off the trap.

NEW EQUIPMENT:
Armor oil: Lubricating oil which quiets the creaking and squeaking of leather armor. The encumbrance of oiled armor can be ignored when moving silently for the purposes of the encumbrance and thievery rules. A pint of armor oil will keep a suit of armor oiled for one week. Cost: 2gp.

Cloak, camouflage: A cloak woven with a colored pattern that makes its wearer harder to see. Camouflaged cloaks are available in a variety of colors and patterns for various environments. If the cloak’s camouflage is appropriate to the environment, the cloak adds a +2 bonus to any proficiency throws to hide in shadows, avoid being spotted, and evade in the wilderness. Characters wearing appropriate camouflage cloaks can always hide in shadows or avoid being spotted with a throw of at least 18+. It imposes a -2 penalty if the camouflage is inappropriate to the environment. The bonus and penalty do not apply to hijinks. Cost: 15gp.

Ear Trumpet: A funnel-shaped tube of silver, wood, shell, or horn that, when placed in its wearer’s ear canal, raises the apparent volume of sound. A character using an ear trumpet gains a +2 bonus to proficiency throws to hear noise. The bonus does not apply to hijinks. Cost: 15gp.

Padded Rigging: A series of belts, straps, pads, and harnesses designed to keep items securely fastened and protectively enclosed. A character wearing padded rigging can ignore up to 1 stone worth of equipment for purposes of the encumbrance and thievery rules. Cost: 5gp.

Padded Shoes: A pair of padded shoes with soft heels that grant a +2 bonus to proficiency throws to move silently. Padded shoes are ruined if worn in badlands, hills, mountains, swamps, or woods, or in water. Cost: 15gp.

Rope, Knotted Climbing: A rope of silk or hemp, carefully knotted at arm length intervals to aid in easy climbing. Any character may climb a knotted climbing rope with a proficiency throw of 2+, adjusted by the better of the character’s Strength or Dexterity modifier. Cost: 2gp.

Thieves’ Tools, Superior: Superior thieves’ tools grant a +1 bonus to proficiency throws to open locks and remove traps. If the thief rolls a natural 1 while attempting to pick a lock, the tools may make a saving throw versus Death (at 1/2 thief’s level of experience) to resist breaking. The bonus does not apply to hijinks. Cost: 200gp.

Thieves’ Tools, Masterwork: Masterwork thieves’ tools grant a +2 to proficiency throws to open locks and remove traps. If the thief rolls a natural 1 while attempting to pick a lock, the tools may make a saving throw versus Death (at the thief’s level) to resist breaking. The bonus does not apply to hijinks. Cost: 1,600gp.

Weapon Blackener: A sealing caulk which, when applied to weapons, permanently darkens their material. The encumbrance of blackened weapons can be ignored when hiding in shadows for purposes of the encumbrance and thievery rules. A pint of weapon blackener will suffice for one two-handed weapon, two one-handed weapons, or twenty arrows or quarrels. Cost: 10gp.

DESIGNER’S NOTES
First, since these rules don’t alter the throw values for the thief skills, they don’t require any changes to the proficiency or class-build system. They also don’t require adjusting the hijinks mathematics, which would be a complex endeavor.
Second, they reduce the frustration resulting from a single point of failure. A thief can now attempt to pick a lock or remove a trap repeatedly, with only time and the risk of damage to the thief or his tools serve as obstacles to repeated attempts.
Third, they introduce relatively low-cost equipment that offers thieves an improved chance of success in their core tasks - picking locks, removing traps, hiding in shadows, and moving silently. However, the equipment does not stack with common magic items (such as wands of knock, rings of invisibility, ropes of climbing or elven cloaks) so it does not increase late-game power very much.
Fourth, they reward thieves for staying light and nimble and differentiate between thieves laden with shiny weapons, loose coin, and creaky armor, and stealthier types.

EXAMPLE in PLAY:
Rollo, a 2nd level thief, wears oiled leather armor, padded shoes (+2 to move silently), and a dark grey camouflaged cloak (+2 to hide in shadows); he wields a blackened long sword and blackened dagger; and he carries masterwork thieves’ tools (+2), grappling hook, and 50’ knotted rope in padded rigging. His encumbrance is 4 3/6. Padded rigging reduces this to 3 3/6. For purposes of moving silently, his encumbrance is 1 3/6 (+4 bonus), for purposes of hiding in shadows it is 3 1/6 (+2 bonus).

Open Locks 15+ (30% success instead of 20% - 1.5x and see below)
Find Traps 17+
Remove Traps 15+ (30% success instead of 20% - 1.5x and see below)
Pick Pockets 16+
Move Silently 10+ (55% success instead of 20% - almost 3x)
Hide in Shadows 14+ (35% success instead of 15% - more than 2x)
Climb Walls 6+

At 1 in 6 every 2 turns, a wandering monster typically results every 12 turns. Let’s use 6 and 12 turns as the number of turns a thief can attempt to open a lock or remove a trap. With 6 tries at 30% success, the thief has an 89% chance of success. With 12 tries at 30% success, the thief has a 99% chance of success. (I have disregard the chance of breakage/setting off the trap).

Very solid, and akin to things I have toyed with doing myself for a while. Glad someone else did the heavy lifting. :stuck_out_tongue:

After having used “doing things the safe way takes more time and thus more wandering monster rolls” several times in my own campaign, I like where this is going. The only extra tweak I might propose is that if there’s anyone on the other side of the locked door, they should get the chance to hear noise on a failed lockpick attempt.

Overall though this is absolutely a step in the right direction.

Looking good Alex! I like how you’re handling it. I’m a softie, so I’ll probably try this out and also houserule adding Ability bonuses to thief skills and that should bring their skill chances up to where I want them. Plus the equipment is cool!

I think this is an unintended consequence (I like it but you may not): When they come into play, Lockpicking and Trap Finding proficiencies get a lot more useful using these rules.

I’m amazed at how smart the folks are on the ACKS forums, and how dedicated you are to weighing input mixed with your own design skills to improve the game. I’m typically intimidated to post on some of these threads for fear of dumbing down the conversation. You guys see things to a depth that I rarely can follow. Smart smart smart. Such inspirational reading. :slight_smile:

I LOVE these rules! Definitely would be put into my ACKS game.

As ways to “fix” the thief, I like the flat abilities in the first post, it gives the thief a decent chance to successfully use his abilities, and with the use of proficiencies he can choose to specialize in what fits his character.

Another thing about flat abilities is that it is easy then to add more options like the specialized equipment, ability score modifiers, task difficulties.

The template idea is another option I like, again it lets the thief choose what part of the class he want to excel at.

Oh, SNAP. How did I miss this entire thread?

That’s a really good point.

Thanks for the kind words! I think ACKS attracts GMs and Players who like tinkering with game mechanics (as compared to flavor or story or setting). As result these forums are a treasure trove of insight into the game.

As for me, I view the rules like a body of common law rather than a mandate of statutory law. Each gamemaster is his own district court. When inconsistencies arise, then the appeals court will, of necessity, hand down a judgment. But the appeals court also learns from the rulings of the other courts and can adjust the common law when needed. The ACKS rulebook is the Restatement of the Common Law. (And now you know why ACKS calls you all Judges…)

Since I’ve started running ACKs, I have made “Each Campaign is a Law Unto Itself” my mantra.

Has anyone thought of just letting thief players use the default starting throws (and default progression) for the thief but let the player choose which skills they are assigned to?

For example:
Thief characters get the following set of throws:
6+, 14+, 17+, 17+, 18+, 18+, 19+
Arrange them as you see fit amongst the thief skills.
Essentially, you would have thief characters start with a reliable “go to” skill of their choice, a secondary skill they are pretty good at, and they would be pretty poor at the remaining thief skills until mid to high level.

I finally had the chance to thoroughly read the entire thread and here are my thoughts:

I don’t think flat skills are a good idea. It correlates to how proficiencies work, but it does not correlate with how class abilities generally work. Thief skills are the abilities of the thief and they should improve with experience just like a fighter’s fighting ability improves, a mage’s spellcasting improves, and so on. A thief shouldn’t have to pay proficiency slots to improve his skills.

I don’t think using equipment to “fix” thief skills is a good idea either. However I do like having them there to improve chances. They look like fun equipment options for skill-oriented characters, and it’s always nice to have a reason to get PCs to spend coin.

The encumbrance and thievery idea seems too complicated for a BX style game. I do like the clarifications for opening locks and removing traps. That helps GMs a lot and looks like it will keep game-flow moving.

The core of the problem to me isn’t so much a math issue, but a numbers issue. The starting numbers for thief skills are terrible, especially when compared to the chances of success for other classes using their class abilities. I think the thief skill chart should essentially be re-written to show progressions that improve low-level thieves and keep high level thieves pretty much the same. This can be easily done… in fact, many thief skills improve at 2 points/level a the higher levels… if anything that trend should be flipped.

This is what I’m thinking. I’d show it all in chart form if I knew how to do that on this forum, but instead I hope my description is sufficient:

  1. Every skill except Climb Walls and Hear Noise start with a throw 4 points lower than the current values. Climb Walls and Hear Noise remain the same. The progressions of all other thief skills improve by 1 point per level (just like Hear Noise does).

  2. Make the idea of a -4, -2, 0, +2, +4 range of modifiers part of attempting thief skills. This enables two things (see 3 & 4).

  3. You can add the equipment list in Alex’s post above to give you bonuses on certain skill attempts in certain situations.

  4. The GM can impose the -2, -4 when they make sense to skill attempts when he/she wants the throws to be more inline with current chances of success.

I really liked the suggestions around thief specific equipment when I first read them but the more I think about it the more issues come up…

Cons:

Added complexity / unnecessary specifying of assumed equipment

Unintended consequences (e.g. does camouflage cloak effect the Explorer’s difficult to spot ability?)

Hands out some of the thief’s mojo to other classes (e.g. Camouflage cloak, to a lesser degree ear trumpet)

Effectively just grants a +2 bonus to starting thief throws, why not just it bake into the numbers

Pros:

It makes sense to have the option to upgrade equipment in the way a fighter buys better armour and weapons

Let’s face it, players tend to love kewl equipment

Allows other classes to steal some of the thief’s mojo (if no one wants to play a thief) and allows some flexibility in character creation

Overall I don’t think I would put the new equipment in, at least not as written. However a couple of measures suggest themselves:

  1. Masterwork thieves tools / expanded thieves tools - a package covering all the equipment options that simply gives a +2 to all thief skill throws. Less fiddle, similar result

  2. Leave things be and focus on the special nature of thief skills (as bobloblah refers to upthread. There’s lots of good commentary on this in the OSR blogosphere - see http://web.fisher.cx/robert/infogami/On_thief_skills_in_classic_D&D for a good example)

  3. Overhaul the thief skill system rather than use equipment and case rules as a patch (obviously much more work!)

All that said I’d take option 3 and there are some great suggestions above. I think the best take is from jedavis, posted upthread from his blog. It has a good blend of flexibility without getting too complex. However, I would even go one step further and make all thief skills proficiencies, which can be taken multiple times providing +4 increases. If non thief classes want to dip their toes in the larcenous waters that’s ok, they still won’t compete with the thief and there will be an opportunity cost in terms of proficiencies passed over. Obviously the thief would need to be compensated with extra proficiencies each level. I think jedavis’s suggestions regarding frequency of proficiency purchase seem reasonable balancing factors.

“Padded Rigging” actually sounds like a very nice piece of adventuring equipment for any character! Consider the following change:

Gear Rigging – A series of belts, straps, pads, and harnesses, designed to keep items securely fastened and protectively enclosed. A character wearing gear rigging can ignore 1 stone worth of equipment for the purposes of encumbrance affecting movement. Gear rigging counts as clothing. Cost: 5 gp.

I’m definitely going to yank some ideas here to add to my list of house rules.

I think Alex was trying to address the issue without having to retroactively rewrite the class/re-balance the class creation rules etc.

I don’t like flat abilities either. Players like to feel like they’re getting better at things. As I mentioned before, however, I believe thieves should start out GOOD at things and get better. I don’t see thieves being good at their core abilities from the start as unbalancing in any way - I do think there’s a mental block in old school gaming to do so. If a fighter had a 15% chance to hit a kobold at first level and couldn’t get better than an AC of 2 people would not play a fighter. The same goes for thieves.

I allow attribute bonuses to affect thief skills. That combined with the fact that I’m a bit more generous than Core in how players roll for attributes at character creation so they’re pretty much guaranteed a good Dexterity score at the least give thieves an immediate bump. I’m also generous at handing out situational modifiers in the thief’s favor unless they’re doing something impossible or unrealistic. I don’t mind combining that with the extra equipment but I can see where it would irritate some people.

I would have a huge issue with making proficiencies improve thief skills, unless you completely rewrote the class and gave them a TON more proficiency slots as they level up. Specific proficiencies shouldn’t be mandatory takes for any class - a thief should be able to take acrobatics, knowledge, bribery, contortionist, combat tricks, etc. just like any other class and still improve in their core abilities. Otherwise the class really gets gimped and I couldn’t imagine anyone wanting to play one under any circumstance. If you make thief skills proficiencies you pretty push a character to spend all of their slots in specific places in order to try and get the best possible bonus.

One of the good things about skills improving as you level automatically is that it allows thief skills that you rarely use improve without you needing to invest in them - if you were required to invest in them to improve them, skills like hide in shadows and move silently would get a ton of love, and skills like pick pockets/hear noise almost no love(except in corner case ‘builds’). The current way skills improve, even if the number are terrible, actually make a well-rounded character to start. Proficiencies that are not tied to the base thief skills only serve to make the class more interesting… or at least more specific to the player’s idea of who that particular thief is and what odd tricks they can pull off.

And please forgive my lack of ability to edit some of the clunk in my previous post. >:-(

I thank you and Lloyd for verbalizing the things in this proposal that were making me uneasy. Encumbrance and multiple gear modifiers are definitely too complicated for my tastes - I much prefer most mundane gear to be useful primarily for enabling Devious Plans, with mechanical modifiers mostly the province of magical gear. I could definitely get behind a lower starting point and a slower progression down to the same values that high-level thieves already have; this sort of makes sense, when you consider that an expert in an area is likely to learn new things less quickly than a novice (though that’s already somewhat modeled by exponential XP growth).

I am also definitely considering writing a heavily-modified thief class that runs on class proficiencies for all of its skills (provided that I can eke enough average proficiencies per level out of the trade-off rules for it to be competitive with the current implementation).

moorcrys wrote: “I think Alex was trying to address the issue without having to retroactively rewrite the class/re-balance the class creation rules etc.”

I think that can easily be done with just one major change and one minor change. No need to change class creation rules or hijinks that I’m aware of.

  1. The major change would be re-writing the thief skill table on p. 23 in ACKS. I think a good move is reducing the current values on all skills except CW and HN by 4 and have them improve by 1/level. That puts all those skills at or within 1 point of the current value (except for PP which goes well into the negatives). The net result would be:
  • a 1st - 6th level thief is 20% better in 6 of 8 skills
  • a 7th thief is 10%-15% better in 6 of 8 skills
  • an 8th level thief is 5% - 10% better in 6 of 8 skills
  • a 9th level thief is +/- 5% better/worse in 6 of 8 skills
  • a 10th level thief is almost exactly the same
  • a 11th -14th level thief is very similar, with all scores except PP being either 5% worse, or sometimes 5% better.
  1. The minor change would be that all hijinks except HN are performed at a -4 penalty to the throw. This would leave the current expectations of hijinks by henchmen, ruffians, and followers exactly the same if they’re levels 1-6, almost the same if they’re level 7, and progressively worse at levels 8+. To mitigate the worse progression at for level 8+ henchmen and ruffians, you could say “if the member doing the hijinks is 8th level or higher, he only suffers a -2 penalty”, but I’m not sure that is necessary unless syndicates have a large number of members that high in level (I’m guessing not).