Really? Really?!?

How about a Darth Vader-esque conversion scene? :slight_smile:

Fair enough. The Chosen backers, I think, are eager to see the “defeat” of the Dark Lord, but I don’t think that has to mean a picture of a recognizable real life person being killed. His dark tower aflame, army defeated, etc, kind of covers it, no?

I am not an artist, but I get the impression death and destruction is challenging to pull off, especially in a pencil/black and white medium. I’d prefer art that is evocative of what is about to happen. For example, being of a LotR leaning at the moment, I think of a slight, warrior woman who has thrown her helmet aside, sword outstretched to challenge an imposing lord riding upon an intimidating beast.

[quote="DrPete"] How about a Darth Vader-esque conversion scene? :) Fair enough. The Chosen backers, I think, are eager to see the "defeat" of the Dark Lord, but I don't think that has to mean a picture of a recognizable real life person being killed. His dark tower aflame, army defeated, etc, kind of covers it, no? [/quote]

Of course, very possible. 

[quote="CharlesDM"] I am not an artist, but I get the impression death and destruction is challenging to pull off, especially in a pencil/black and white medium. I'd prefer art that is evocative of what is about to happen. For example, being of a LotR leaning at the moment, I think of a slight, warrior woman who has thrown her helmet aside, sword outstretched to challenge an imposing lord riding upon an intimidating beast. [/quote]

Yes, that is generally the art style I prefer as well. 

Those both sound like pretty fantastic art descriptions.  I can't believe I forgot about "I am no man" as an iconic example of a chosen one!  Bonus points if she is also a gnome named Anne.

Have you considered that maybe not everyone who disagrees with you is a white nationalist or a *-ist, and that your knee-jerk tossing of such labels around is exactly where people take issue with your line of argument? Frankly, it's the root of why the left is in such shambles across the Western world.

Signed, a lefty who's been losing hair over how any actual leftist thought has been purged from "the left"...

Ummmm… a 5 minute scan through Vox’s blog revealed that he promotes white nationalism. I’m not exaggerating, I’m describing the facts on the ground. If you are a supporter of his movement, you might want to take a moment and ask yourself why all your fellow travellers seem so racist. What do you think they mean by all those things they say?

Edit: to be specific, from his alt right manifesto:

The Alt Right is openly and avowedly nationalist. It supports all nationalisms and the right of all nations to exist, homogeneous and unadulterated by foreign invasion and immigration.

The Alt Right believes we must secure the existence of white people and a future for white children.

Etc…

To be clear, I think I’m saying that that kind of guy is not cool, and that kind of guy doesn’t belong. It’s not “tolerance” to be cool with that rhetoric. We really are dealing with normalizing white nationalism here, not just general political correctness.

Now you're assuming that I support him or his movement, which is interesting.

Vox Day is just a silly jackass who gets his ego stroked by people like you who have elevated him to some sort of supervillain status, a role that he is more than happy to play to keep you angry at him. An internet troll, remember? You're so swept up in this notion of "paladinhood" that you've forgotten that you're taking the bait as hard as you possibly can, and are doubling down when called on it.

You’re right, I misinterpreted what you were saying. I thought you were disagreeing with the label white nationalist for Vox Day and his followers. You were just disagreeing with it for his defenders…?

Not just defenders, but for anyone who thinks that "hey, people should be allowed to play and make contributions to games regardless of their personal politics".

But really, I find it hard to believe that 'progressives' really oppose that kind of rhetoric when the reaction is always to shout insults and block/ban/cut off/etc.. At best, you're just putting a lid on it and then acting surprised when the pot boils over. At worst, you're actively feeding and playing into their version of the narrative...

I had paid very little attention to this until the dark lord campaign. Looking over his blog, there’s an article about “entryism”… He’s talking about transferring representation, but it applies to racism as well. There are people interested in moving the bounds of acceptable conversation. On the left, this might include getting a trans person on TV (or whatever) and getting people “used” to it, so it becomes more ok. The mirror to this is racism… people on the racist right want to “normalize” racist ideas, and move them into the mainstream. The time to oppose that “normalization” is when they poke their nose into the tent.

Am I incorrect in reading that as you wishing to enforce what is and is not acceptable conversation? Are you actively choosing to forget that the majority of gains found in equal rights were only possible due to the freedom of speech that you, I, and even 'deplorables' enjoy?

You should be very, very careful in conflating this kind of "we should cut off all these people" behavior with "opposition". Opposition is engaging these people and soundly defeating them in the marketplace of ideas. It should be a simple enough task if their ideas are so low, right?

I'll also say straightforward that the 'normalization' argument is a load of garbage. The only thing you accomplish by tabooing a subject is increasing its appeal; "Oh, they don't want me to hear what this person has to say, let's check that out!"... and then, because you've refused to show up to the debate, you end up losing by default as their words stand unchecked. The examples of this throughout human history are countless, and one would hope that people would have learned from the Streisand Effect as it also occurs over, and over...

I'll reiterate: The kind of over-reaction that led to this thread is exactly what Vox Day revels in, and exactly what gave him a name or a following to begin with.

Fair enough. I disagree that we need to discuss how humans living alongside elves and dwarves in peace will inevitably lead to victory for the orcs, but if they want to, I’ll debate them. I think it’s obviously ludicrous.

SenorOcho I have to say that I feel you are blowing the response in this specific thread out of proportion.  Is it possible you may be projecting onto it injustices you have seen in other forums (perhaps RPG.net)?  What I saw was a number of people expressing concerns that Vox Day would not merely be playing and backing like everyone else, but inserting his agenda into the game itself, which up until now everyone playing had managed to avoid doing.  After Alex assured the concerned parties that he would keep any requests consistent with the tone and style of existing products, a few people personally and publicly decided that was still too much for them, and some of the other concerned parties accepted his reassurance while reiterating that they don't like the guy or what he stands for.  At no point did anyone who decided to keep backing chastise those who withdrew, and they returned the consideration.  To top it off, a counter campaign was started among those who remained, perhaps with a hint of snubbing, but mostly with the intent to provide another class that fits with the theme of heroic fantasy.

Honestly, I'm not sure what kind of better response you expected.  And it kind of baffles me because I am also of the opinion that silencing dissent is ineffective and just drives these ideas underground where you can't see them and debate them in the open. It's kind of bizarre for me to see you express the same ideals I consider myself to hold while having what seems like the exact opposite reaction to this thread as me.

Don't misunderstand me, I think Alex's response to this has been top notch, and have no problem at all with the counter-campaign-- more content is fantastic! I simply felt a need to respond to certain comments from a couple members I felt as being outlandish and/or outright extremist in their own right. Taking my own advice and trying to present the entirety of my stance, if you will.

The first step is to recognize that we’re all human around here. If you have no empathy, are you really any better than the orcs?

I’m not sure where this is going, but I don’t think these arguments improve if you replace fantasy races with real ones. You’re right, I see little value in hashing through arguments about these things. I would find a different group if my group turned out to be full of white supremacists. Not interested in “debate” with that. Slavery was bad. The holocaust was bad. If we can’t agree on such basic things, it’s time to move on.

Have you found people honestly suggesting otherwise? If not, that's one hell of a strawman, and exactly what I'm talking about.

Most of what I've seen on the right is nothing more than them picking up the same identity politics cudgel that's been used to bludgeon them for decades. As a liberal, identity politics is something I'm against in general-- we should all be treated as equal individuals. But some seem to think that the only response is to try to hit them *harder* with said cudgel, which is just feeding the destructive cycle...

I think that we may be talking at cross purposes. Yes, I agree that calling people who don’t actually espoused those values is counterproductive. These people are actually talking about things on this truly racist spectrum. Things like: tolerance of different ethnic groups leads to civilizational collapse, certain races will need several more generations before they will be ready for civilization, etc. It is racist garbage that deserves strong condemnation, and I don’t understand why you are defending it…

You seem to think that tyranny is fought with more tyranny, that hate is fought with more hate. The entire point is that you could not be more wrong. At best you just replace one form of hate with another, and at worst you just throw more fuel on the fire and empower the very groups you claim to be fighting. Which are you aiming for?

I hear ya. I think I’m understanding, now. Objecting to racist speech is wrong. Does racist speech itself deserve more, or less, condemnation from you? You seem to be much more upset with the anti-racists and very willing to cut the racists lots of breaks (it’s ironic, a strawman, etc)

I have no authority here, I’m just someone on this board who doesnt want that garbage thought mixed with my gaming. If they come, I’ll denounce them. I have no power to make them go away, if they wanted to flood the boards with their hate, they can. I just don’t want them to. I don’t understand why you want us to be cool with them.