Really? Really?!?

[quote="Jard"] That being said, I am open to the idea, if you are, of donating an amount equal to my pledge to a cause that fights racism or helps refugees.  Sulldawga, Thirdkingdom, Wyzard, and Atlicaltl, if you'll pardon my snooping I've deduced that you guys are all part of the same ACKs campaign that seems to take equal parts here and over on big purple, so I am curious what you think.  Do you think it's a fair and appropriate response for those who dislike Vox Day, want to do more than just say so, but who don't wish to cut ties with ACKs, to do a matching pledge to a charitable organization?

[/quote] I'm not cutting ties with ACKS. I'm still in on the KS, and just subscribed to the Patreon yesterday. I don't want to live in a world where Vox Day denies *me* access to a product that I really like, and like I said I understand, respect, and sympathize with Alex's comments here. That he doesn't believe in financial boycotts of things to leverage change is also a factor; while he's stated he'll respect those patrons who choose to do so, he will not allow such actions to sway his decision-making. He's done a reasonably good job, I think, explaining the history of that and how it falls on multiple sides of the political spectrum.

Still, I've made my case for why I think ACKS and Alex are being used by the racist construct Vox Day and encourage Alex to reconsider whether he wants to be used that way. It's going to be a souring of the KS product to have the Dark Lord and his Vile Faceless Misions repesented within it. IMO, it stains the product in a sad way.

If Alex comes to agree with me as a result of me and others speaking up about it, then I'll have done my work. If he doesn't, he and I can disagree about it. For now, I'm still buying the product. We'll see how I feel when I'm actually holding it in my hands and looking at what I see as Vox Day's corrupting infiltration.

~*~

Rodriguez, I gave a quick answer to your query about Vox Day's harm to others in post #119 above, which got caught up in moderation because of the links. And then I had difficulty posting to the forums, so I was unable to edit out some light snark from the late hour. My apologies for that.

That glitch also delayed the response I just made. Apologies for seemingly disappearing from the conversation.

[quote="Atlictoatl"]

Rodriguez, I gave a quick answer to your query about Vox Day's harm to others in post #119 above, which got caught up in moderation because of the links. And then I had difficulty posting to the forums, so I was unable to edit out some light snark from the late hour. My apologies for that.

That glitch also delayed the response I just made. Apologies for seemingly disappearing from the conversation.

[/quote]

 

Ah, no problem!

The snarky bits didnt bother me but you make it sound somehow as if it was my responsible to research him when I doubt accusations and I certainly would disagree with that.

I agree that doxxing is a really shitty thing to do, even if she faked the review I dont think its in any way an appropriate response. If that counts as actual harm is pretty debatable though. In the worst case I could see it as a part of "inciting violence" if he also urges his fans to deal with her. 

About the "feeling of impending harrassment": Thats probably a misunderstanding. I dont think that me or anybody else will get harassed on this forum because of their stance towards Vox Day but I think that when the emotions here boil up even more and the words describing Vox Day get stronger and stronger then people who disagree run a high risk of getting labled as various unpleasant things.

Its just something I have seen online quite a few times. If it doesnt happen in here, all the better! :)

[quote="Rodriguez"] The snarky bits didnt bother me but you make it sound somehow as if it was my responsible to research him when I doubt accusations and I certainly would disagree with that. [/quote] In my fatigue that night, I may have suggested that more than I meant to. My greater point was that it didn't take more than five minutes (meaning, if that was so easy, there's a high probability of more, and potentially worse, stuff were I or anyone else to want to spend the time digging for it) for me to find evidence of him crowing about doxxing someone in front of hundreds of followers for something as insignificant as posting a bad review of him on Amazon. His spurious attempts to disclaim responsibility for his actions ("I didn't invent the rules of the game") fail to justify the fact that he doxxed someone in front of his fanbase.

There is no reason to doxx somebody other than to incite one's community (followers, in this case) to use that information to harass the person. Doxxing serves no other purpose, except perhaps to threaten someone into shutting up and backing off, because you can inflict a world of hurt on them.

Doxxing is serious shit, and people who do it in a serious way severely fuck people's lives up for weeks, months, or years. It comes with a healthy dose of emotional damage that can be hard to recover from. I don't have any proof of how malicious this specific doxxing activity was on Vox Day's part, but the fact that he's so callously blase about it implies that he's used to doing this or worse with some regularity. 

He's not remotely a good person.

> I agree that doxxing is a really shitty thing to do, even if she faked the review I dont think its in any way an appropriate response. If that counts as actual harm is pretty debatable though. In the worst case I could see it as a part of "inciting violence" if he also urges his fans to deal with her. It really isn't, though. Doxxing leads directly to harassment, which can be very damaging and which the victim has no way of stopping if it persists short of completely uprooting their lives (if that). There are victims of extreme doxxing and harrassment campaigns who have to deal with that shit years and years after the initial conflagration. It's the harassment / bullying that never stops, with some communities. 

We currently live in a moment in time when police and the courts don't quite know how to deal with doxxing. In this time, we need to exercise even more outrage against people who use doxxing as a means of controlling and threatening people they disagree with, because the system of redress victims can typically rely on is ineffectual until the legal system catches up.

While I disagree with doxxing for the vast majority of cases, it should be pointed out that this wasn’t insignificant, as there have been coordinated fake review bombings (literally a form of online harassment campaign). Anne Rice in particular recently called this behavior out, resulting in waves of death threats sent her way from supposed “progressives”…

It’s kind of amazing that this thread hasn’t attracted more trolls, isn’t it?

I love this community, btw.

[quote="DrPete"] It's kind of amazing that this thread hasn't attracted more trolls, isn't it? I love this community, btw. [/quote]

 

Frankly, I'm just glad all the discussion of the Dark Lord hasn't devolved to "The Dark? Lord..."

It really isn't, though. Doxxing leads directly to harassment, which can be very damaging and which the victim has no way of stopping if it persists short of completely uprooting their lives (if that). There are victims of extreme doxxing and harrassment campaigns who have to deal with that shit years and years after the initial conflagration. It's the harassment / bullying that never stops, with some communities. 

It can lead to harassment but the people who do the actual harassment are the ones doing the harm then. 

 

We currently live in a moment in time when police and the courts don't quite know how to deal with doxxing. In this time, we need to exercise even more outrage against people who use doxxing as a means of controlling and threatening people they disagree with, because the system of redress victims can typically rely on is ineffectual until the legal system catches up.

I vehemently disagree! 

Its never the right time to create outrage and form some internet vigilante mob just because the legal system does not currently agree if something is a crime or not. 

 

Sounds like doxxing to me. I agree, it’s never the right time for that.

 

[quote="DrPete"] It's kind of amazing that this thread hasn't attracted more trolls, isn't it? I love this community, btw. [/quote]

You shouldn't have said that .......

 

Pff, you call that a troll...

[quote="ZeroSum"]

Pff, you call that a troll...

[/quote]

I wonder what would have happened if none of the original D&D guys had read Three Hearts and Three Lions, since that's where that troll came from.

[quote="The Dark"]

I wonder what would have happened if none of the original D&D guys had read Three Hearts and Three Lions, since that's where that troll came from.

[/quote]

Probably a more Tolkieny troll, if any.

[quote="Rodriguez"] I vehemently disagree! 

Its never the right time to create outrage and form some internet vigilante mob just because the legal system does not currently agree if something is a crime or not.  [/quote]

There's a difference between expressing outrage at morally reprehensible behavior and "form[ing] some internet vigilante mob".  

Although rest assured when I tell people the story of this Kickstarter, I will not mention how I tried to ignite a boycott and ended up being the only person to cancel my pledge.  I will be the glorious leader of an vigilante mob fighting for truth and justice in the dark corners of the internet where a bunch of older white dudes nerd out about the demographics of imaginary ACKS kingdoms.

[quote="sulldawga"]

There's a difference between expressing outrage at morally reprehensible behavior and "form[ing] some internet vigilante mob".  

[/quote]

So that outrage will only take the form of angry posts on social media?

No further activism? 

As RPG players, it is our right; nay, our sacred duty; when telling stories of the Old Days, to alter them to make ourselves sound better.

 I will be the glorious leader of an vigilante mob fighting for truth and justice in the dark corners of the internet where a bunch of older white dudes nerd out about the demographics of imaginary D&D kingdoms.

That's not a nice thing to say. It's ACKS kingdoms, not D&D kingdoms. 

 

 

 

 

I don't really know much about this vox day character other than skimming through a quick internet search, however, this thread did make me back the kickstarter. I enjoy reading through the ideas in ACKs (haven't much chance to run it, sadly) and am looking forward to adding these new books to my digital collection.

[quote="Rodriguez"] So that outrage will only take the form of angry posts on social media?

No further activism?  [/quote]

I withdrew my pledge.  I'm honestly not sure what the next step would be.  I am open to suggestions.

[quote="Alex"] That's not a nice thing to say. It's ACKS kingdoms, not D&D kingdoms. [/quote]

You're the last person I'd expect to take umbrage over someone saying not nice things.  But you expressed your opposition politely so how could I not edit my post?  

LOL, thanks sulldawga! I was being facetious but it cracks me up that you played along.