Colin's Thoughts, Suggestions, and Errata

The only issue with using “made up names” is that then necessitates some kind of description/explanation as to what a “golden lizard dagger” looks like, and that’s wasted space, imo.
So, I’d either say stick to the generic weapon names (short sword, dart, pole arm, etc.) or use real world ones, but use them correctly. I’d be happy with either, to be honest, and I’ve used both approaches myself such as when I revised the d20 D&D classes for the Iron Kingdoms (in Lock & Load), helped revise some class elements in Castles & Crusades, etc. Heck, in my own Atomic Highway RPG, I went the generic entry route rather than specifics (whereas in Secrets of the Surface World for Hollow Earth Expedition, I went into serious real world detail).
Colin

In the interests of the generic approach, here are the principle weapons used that would probably form the list of a revised Mystic:
Club, Dagger, Dart, Flail, Great Axe, Hand Axe, Mace, Morning Star, Pole Arm, Short Sword, Spear, Staff, Sword, Two-Handed Sword, Whip
Use those and you’ve covered the bases of nearly all the martial arts-style weapons anyway.
Colin

I don’t have an issue with “cheap orientalism” (let’s face it, D&D and its spin-offs have always been a melange of cheap occidentalism and orientalism pop culture, rife with mish-mashes, inaccuracies and anachronisms), but it occurs to me that there might be some disconnect. On one hand, many of the templates are generic, but on the other, a lot are obviously campaign specific. The Mystic templates seem to be neither one nor the other.
Colin

I prefer the use of made-up names to real-world terms, but overall I think the generic terms would make the mystics less culturally bound e.g. If I wanted to play a mystic in a faux-European setting and I’ve carrying a Bo while everyone else has a staff. I wouldn’t want every mystic to have to be a foreigner.
I suppose if you’re visualising mystics as having lived a sheltered life in ancient secluded monsteries bound my reverance to the past you can argue they’re have weird weapons from another age.

Assassin - Bounty Hunter: Shouldn’t the BH’s “curved sword” be noted as being a type of short sword (as the various scimitars, yataghans, etc. are all gathered together under the short sword entry)?
APM: It’s not intended to be a scimitar or other short sword. It’s a sword (capable of being wielded one or two handed) that happens to be curved. I didn’t want to call it a katana, but that’s what I was envisioning.
Fighter - Thug
I’d probably replace the morning star here with a plain old club and dagger, the two weapons most associated with thugs.
APM: In ACKS, a morning star includes any clubs designed exclusively for two-handed use. It’s a big club. I can change the template to say “huge club” and then note that a huge club is a morning star, I guess.
Fighter - Ravager
A saexe is not a “hand axe”; it’s a “dagger” (though some were long and heavy enough to fall under “short sword”). As you’re obviously going for an Anglo-Saxon or Viking-styled theme here, I’d replace “double-bladed great axe” with “long bearded axe” too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saex
APM: Good catch. The weapon I was actually thinking of is the francisca. I’ll fix that.
Fighter - Gladiator
Style-wise, I’d replace “gilded swords” with “gilded short swords”.
APM: His swords are not short swords.
Fighter - Legionary
Again, I’d replace “military-issue sword” with “military-issue short sword” as the legionary fighting style effectively prohibited the use of longer-bladed swords.
APM: The Auran legionaries use swords, not short swords. Auran legionaries fight in wider formation than Roman legionaries because of the threat of magic.

As you’re including horse- and camel-mounted nomads though, you definitely need to include the short bow and compound bow in the Shaman class’ list of permitted weapons.
APM: Alsas, no can do. I’m working with a fixed total number of weapon slots available to the Shaman (based on the Character Creation rules), so that would only be possible by removing some of the other weapons from the list. Moreover, I think giving the Shaman access to the bow would tip the balance of the class to be too powerful relative to, e.g., the Cleric. Shaman + wolf companion + composite bow would be a World of Warcraft Hunter, not what is intended.

About the mystic, what a controversy!
My intent with the mystic class is: (1) they primarily come from Somirea (which is Indo-Persian in aesthetic) and (2) they use weird, exotic weapons, all of which really existed.
The weapons on the list that you think are made-up, such as “dragon crescent blade”, “coiling dragon staff”, and “willow leaf sabers”, are word-for-word translations of names for actual Chinese weapons. I didn’t use the Chinese names because I didn’t want to suggest a specifically Chinese background. I though the names used were visually evocative and told a story as to what the weapon looked like.
For the Chakram, I used the actual name because (1) the Mystic in-campaign comes from an Indo-Persian culture, and (2) since Xena uses a Chakram, the weapon has passed into the generic fantasy vocabulary just as “katana” has. I could call it a “throwing disc” but then people will ask why I didn’t call it a chakram, or why they’re fighting with a frisbee.
As far as bo stick, it’s not either a proper Japanese or Chinese name for the weapon, being really an English hodgepodge word. That said, everyone knows what a bo stick is, and why it’s different from an English quarterstaff.
I’m not 100% happy with the outcome and happy to develop a more consistent approach but the above should at least outline the thinking.

APM: Assassin - Bounty Hunter
It’s not intended to be a scimitar or other short sword. It’s a sword (capable of being wielded one or two handed) that happens to be curved. I didn’t want to call it a katana, but that’s what I was envisioning.
CC: Hmm, if you want to avoid the name “katana” and its associated baggage, how about the Turkish-originated “kilij”? It would fit the Auran setting better, and is a truly lethal weapon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilij
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikVMXhcjbYc - Kilij in action
APM: Gladiator and Legionary are Auran-specific takes
CC: Aha, cool, it wasn’t clear that they were specifically Auran rather than more generic templates.
APM: Mystic Templates are primarily Indo-Persian.
CC: If you’re going for a heavy Indo-Persian vibe with them (including keeping the Chakram named as such), would you prefer weapon alternatives that are less clearly Chinese in aesthetic name-wise? Let’s face it, the moment you find a weapon called a “dragon this” or “willow leaf that”, you’ve obviously entered Chinese weapon-naming territory, so you’ve got a mish-mash of Japanese/Okinawan, Indian, and translated Chinese weapon names all in the same entries that are supposed to be Indo-Persian themed.
Some of the weapons used in Gatka, Kalaripayattu, and Shastar Vidya are very cool, not to mention historical weapons used by the likes of the Mughals. Some suggestions:

  • “Bo Stick”: Replace with “Lathi” (it’s still a fighting staff, just using the Hindi term)
  • “Willow Leaf Sabers”: There are all sorts of beautiful Indo-Persian curved swords that could’ve been used here, but they’ve all been listed as “Short Swords” in ACKS, and the WLS is described as a “Sword”. So, how about replacing the WLS with the exotic Indian “Khanda” sword (which would fit more appropriately under the normal “Sword” entry as well)?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanda_(sword)
  • “Dragon Crescent Blade”: Could be replaced with “Trishula” (an Indian trident-like bladed pole arm).
  • “Coiling Dragon Staff”: Could be replaced with the “Cumberjung” double-ended Indian flail.
    http://blog.royalarmouries.org/2011/08/05/quoit-dangerous/
    Having the Lathi, Chakram, Khanda, Trishula, and Cumberjung unifies things nicely and really helps get across the Indo-Persian aesthetic.
    cheers!
    Colin

Colin - these are great suggestions, thank you. I’ll follow up on the links you provided and incorporate them into the next iteration.
I deeply appreciate the time and effort you went in to on the forum posts above to provide those weapon descriptions. As you may have gathered from the Weapon Descriptions in the Core Rules of ACKS, I enjoy working out which historical weapons equate to which ACKS weapons.

OMG - not only do the templates make ACKS a bit WFRP (Dwarven Pest Controller with Terriers!), now it’s getting a bit Tunnels & Trolls with the exotic weapons. Taking other rpgs and robbin’ their stuff = excellent !

No worries, mate. I’m a big nut about historical and cultural weaponry and MArts, and being in the UK I’ve had the fortune to be able to watch displays of various Indian martial arts. I was tickled pink to see the illo. of the fighter wielding a pair of pata-like gauntlet swords on page 239. The pic on page 208 has also inspired me to put together an optional random Drunken Debauchery table to part characters from their hard-earned treasure. Results such as:
40 - I Here Swear! You made a foolish pledge, loudly and in public to do something potentially dangerous. Roll 1d6: 1-2 = Clear Nearest Monster Den/Ruin, 3-4 = Bring Down Local Bandits/Thieves/Thugs, 5-6 = Steal Valuable From Important Local (Roll as in Dangerous Liaison! to determine who).
41 - Just Married! You wake up to find someone claiming to be your new wife/husband! Roll 1d6: 1-2 = Attractive, 3-4 = Average, 5 = Ugly, 6 = Pass the bucket! Judge also secretly rolls 1d6: 1-3 = It’s a con attempt, 4-6 = It’s true.
42 - My Land! You gambled/spent all of your loot and acquired the deeds to something! Roll 1d6: 1-2 = Disreputable Inn, 3 = Nearest Ruin, 4 = Plot of Wildland, 5-6 = Run-Down Farm. Judge secretly rolls 1d6: 1-4 = It’s a fake, 5-6 = It’s legitimate.
43-44 - My Precious! You spent half of your loot on a truly gaudy but otherwise unremarkable item. Roll 1d6: 1 = Armour, 2 = Garment, 3-4 = Jewellery Piece, 5 = Shield, 6 = Weapon. Actual item should be determined by Judge based on amount spent, cost of such items, and the character’s preferences.
It’s a very early draft, but you get the idea.
Colin

Nice!
Knowing my players, I’d get a lot of use out of that.

Regarding “charkam” v. “chakra”, E. Jaiwant Paul, Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India lists the plural of chakram as chakra. I’ve switched to “chakram” for now but I’m quite confused.
Here are the weapons that will appear in the next iteration of the mystic:: The lathi (“stick”) is a type of staff. The chakram (“war ring”) is a type of dart. The trishula (“triple spear”) is a type of pole arm. The cumberjung (“double-ended flail”) is a type of flail. The khanda (“destroyer”) is a type of sword. The chuttuval (“coiling sword”) is a type of whip. The haladie (“double bladed dagger”) is a type of short sword. The bagh nakh (“tiger’s claws”) is a type of dagger. The barcha is a type of spear. The tulwar is a type of short sword.
That said, the names are so foreign to most readers that I might switch them to their English translations.
For example, what would you prefer to see:
Urumi, pair of haladie, pair of bagh nakh, grey robe with hood, leather belt, low boots, backpack, 2 week’s iron rations, 2 doses of giant centipede poison, 10gp
Coiling sword, pair of double-bladed daggers, pair of tiger’s claws, grey robe with hood, leather belt, low boots, backpack, 2 week’s iron rations, 2 doses of giant centipede poison, 10gp

I /much/ prefer the second one.

I’m with demoss. I prefer the second one.

2nd option seems much better to me too. It has the flavour without the cultural disconnect.

The vast majority of your players will not be scholars of foreign martial arts, so whilst the ‘real’ names are historically accurate, evocative and in some cases beautiful, what they are decidedly not is accessible.
You’ve made a great effort to make ACKS accessible, paring back complex concepts where you can, trying to make the rules easy to read, easy to understand, and so on. I’d caution about undermining that with imposing the cognitive load of cultural translation. (Some might say people should broaden their minds, and I do agree, but balance that against desires for commercial success)
Tl;dr - 2nd one is better.
If you’ve got the room, add the cultural names to the weapon descriptions, or even have a table where you can list the different cultural names (e.g. Staff - Lathi - Bo - etc… )

I can see what folks are saying, though if you go with the second approach (coiling sword, et al.) I’d still have a footnote, but have it displaying the actual names of the weapons (khanda, etc.). Basically, a reversal of the current approach.
Having the real world names there (whether in the initial entries or footnotes) is a good thing, in my opinion; when I started gaming, for example, I had no freaking clue what a glaive was, let alone a bohemian ear spoon, but in short order, I learned. These days, where an explanation is a few measly seconds away on Google, broadening your knowledge is faster and easier by several orders of magnitude.
Not having them in there loses a lot of flavour, so one way or the other, they should be present. Furthermore, some of the English names can actually lead to confusion if you don’t have the actual original names present; try a search for “tiger’s claws” for example. At least if you look for “bagh nakh” you’ll actually find the weapon!
Colin

Here’s my current thoughts on presentation.
Notes: The Mystic templates above use weapons drawn from Indian and Chinese martial arts.
•A war ring (or “chakram”) is a sharpened metal hoop 4.5” in diameter. Treat it as a dart for game purposes.
•An elephant trunk blade (or “xiang bi dao”) is a halberd with a single-edged chopping head resembling the trunk of an elephant. Treat it as a pole arm for game purposes.
•A coiling blade (or “chuttuval”) is an edged band of thin steel, 4-5’ in length, flexible enough to be coiled in a tight roll. Treat it as a whip for game purposes.
•A double bladed dagger (or “haladie”) is a dagger with two opposite blades attached to a central handle. Each blade is 6”-9” long. Treat it as a short sword for game purposes.
•A set of tiger’s claws (or “bagh nakh”) includes five curved blades affixed to a glove or handgrip. Threat it as a dagger for game purposes.
•A tulwar is a short, curved blade similar to a scimitar. Treat it as a short sword for game purposes.
NOTE that I included one Chinese weapon, “the elephant trunk blade”. I was not impressed by the names and aesthetics of the Indian polearms I found, while the idea of an elephant-trunk blade totally resonated with me. Since the Mystic is “Somirean” not Indian I have no problem with assuming that the Somireans (who use war elephants) have elephant trunk blades.

Sounds fine to me. By the way, if you want a Hindi translation for flavour, “Elephant Trunk Blade” would be “Haathi Soond Chaku”.
Colin