Number Encountered

Hello everyone -
In some recent discussions it became clear that the No. Enc. system is somewhat baroque and doesn’t make explicit what it’s trying to accomplish. Please let me know what you think of the following revised format:


GOBLIN
Dungeon Enc: 60% hunting party (2d4), 40% lair (1d10 hunting parties)
Wilderness Enc: 60% warband (1d10 hunting parties), 40% village (1d10 warbands)
Alignment: Chaotic
Movement: 60’ (20’)
Armor Class: 3
Hit Dice: 1 - 1
Attacks: 1 (weapon)
Damage: 1d6 or weapon
Save: 0 level human
Morale: -1
Treasure Type: R on hunting party; C in camp; H in village
XP: 5
Goblins are repellent beastmen bred from dwarves and gnolls by the ancient Zaharans. Goblins stand 3’ to 3 ½’ tall, with surprisingly strong, wiry builds. Their eyes are usually dull and glazed, varying in color from red to yellow, and sometimes flicker red in the dark. Goblins’ skin color ranges from yellow through any shade of orange to a deep red; usually all members of a single tribe are about the same color. They spend most of their days underground, and as such suffer a -1 penalty to all attack throws when in full sunlight, but have a longer range of infravision, to 90’. Goblins are archenemies of dwarves, who they hate above all other humanoids, followed closely by their distaste for gnomes. Goblins typically wear drab, patchy leather armor and fight with spears, short swords, and slings.
Goblins sometimes use dire wolves as mounts. There is a 20% chance per hunting party that 2 goblins encountered will be mounted on dire wolves. In every hunting party, one goblin will be a champion with AC4, 1 Hit Die, and 7 hit points. If dire wolf mounts are available, the champions will always be mounted. In their lair, goblins will be led by a chieftain with AC6, 3 Hit Dice, 16 hit points, and a +2 bonus to damage rolls from strength. As long as the chieftain is alive, the goblins will gain a +2 to morale rolls. Goblin lairs will have females and young equal to 60% and 100% of the number of males respectively, neither of which fight.
Goblin lairs in the wilderness will be villages with an additional sub-chieftain and 2d4 bodyguards present. The sub-chieftain and bodyguards will each have AC5, 1+1 Hit Die, 9 hit points, and a +1 bonus to damage rolls. There is a 60% chance a goblin village will be guarded by 5d6 dire wolves and another 20% chance that 2d6 bugbear mercenaries will be present. In addition, a village has a 75% chance of a shaman being present, and a 50% chance of a witch doctor. A shaman is equivalent to a sub-chieftain statistically, but has Clerical abilities at level 2d4. A witch doctor is equivalent to a champion statistically, but has Mage abilities at level 1d6.


A few other examples of the system:
BABOON, ROCK
Dungeon Enc: 90% troupe (2d6), 10% den (1d4 troupes)
Wilderness Enc: 90% large troupe (5d6), 10% den (1 large troupe)
Alignment: Neutral
Movement: 120’ (40’)
Armor Class: 3
Hit Dice: 2
Attacks: 2 (bite, club)
Damage: 1d3/1d6
Save: F2
Morale: 0
Treasure Type: None
XP: 20
These larger, more intelligent baboons are omnivores that have a higher tendency to hunt for meat. They bite, but also may use sticks as clubs. Like its smaller cousin, the rock baboon lives in packs led by the biggest, strongest male. Rock baboons are aggressive, and are easily stimulated to fight. While they do not have a true language, they can communicate threats and warnings with simple screams.

ELF
Dungeon Enc: 90% patrol (1d4), 10% lair (1d10 patrols)
Wilderness Enc: 90% warband (1d0 patrols), 10% fastness (1d10 warbands)
Alignment: Neutral
Movement: 120’ (40’)
Armor Class: 4
Hit Dice: 1 + 1
Attacks: 1 (weapon)
Damage: 1d8 or weapon
Save: E1
Morale: 0
Treasure Type: F in lair, Fx5 in fastness
XP: 15
Elves are beautiful demi-humans that average 5 ½’ tall, with lithe builds and graceful features. Elves are ageless, always appearing in the prime of life, and can live for upwards of two centuries if not slain in battle. Their skin is always fair, while their hair color ranges from blue-black to platinum, and their eyes are amber, blue, golden, hazel, or violet. Elves prefer colorful clothes, usually with a green-and-gray cloak that blends well with the colors of the forest. They typically arm themselves with lightweight chainmail, shields, delicately curved swords, and composite bows.
When encountered in a group of 20 or more, elves will be led by an elven spellsword, whose level will be determined by rolling 1d6+1. This leader may possess items of magic, with a probability equal to 5% per level of the leader per type of magic item. In the presence of the leader, elves have morale of +2 rather than 0.
Elves are sometimes encountered in large wilderness lair known as a fastness. In a fastness, there will always be an elven spellsword of 9th level in command, with an additional 2d6 spellswords of 2nd to 7th level. An elven fastness will usually (70%) have 2d6 giant hawks (or eagles) guarding it. Elven fastnesses will usually have females and young equal to 100% and 5% of the number of males respectively.

I think this is a more digestible format, Alex.

I like it!
Although I love the flavorfulness of …
Dungeon Enc: 90% patrol (1d4), 10% lair (1d10 patrols)
Wilderness Enc: 90% warband (1d0 patrols), 10% fastness (1d10 warbands)
vs.
Dungeon Enc: 90% troupe (2d6), 10% den (1d4 troupes)
Wilderness Enc: 90% large troupe (5d6), 10% den (1 large troupe)
… I think we need generic terms to talk about the underlying structure.
Are there better choices than:
A% dungeon wandering monster, B% dungeon lair
X% wilderness wandering monster, Y% wilderness lair

Here’s examples to contrast flavorful collective nouns v. standard structure:
ANT, GIANT (flavorful)
Dungeon Enc: 90% colony (2d4), 10% nest (4d6)
Wilderness Enc: 90% swarm (4d6), 10% nest (4d6)
ANT, GIANT (standardized)
Dungeon Enc: 90% group (2d4), 10% lair (4d6)
Wilderness Enc: 90% group (4d6), 10% lair (4d6)
BUGBEAR (flavorful)
Dungeon Enc: 75% hunting party (2d4), 25% tribe (1d4 hunting parties)
Wilderness Enc: 75% warband (1d4 hunting parties), 25% village lair (1d10 warbands)
BUGBEAR (standardized)
Dungeon Enc: 75% group (2d4), 25% lair (1d4 groups)
Wilderness Enc: 75% large group (1d4 groups), 25% large lair (1d10 large groups)
SHADOW (flavorful)
Dungeon Enc: 60% throng (1d8), 40% haunt (1d12)
Wilderness Enc: 60% horde (1d12), 40% haunt (1d12)
SHADOW (standardized)
Dungeon Enc: 60% group (1d8), 40% lair (1d12)
Wilderness Enc: 60% large group (1d12), 40% lair (1d12)
I think it actually works better with flavorful names because it’s easier to refer to a “warband” or “hunting party” and have it make sense.

I vote for the flavorful names. If one’s talking about the underlying rules you can say “group” and “lair” but I like knowing what the groups and lairs are called.

Oh yeah I’m not arguing against the flavor at all! I am just thinking about the intro text to the chapter where we explain how this system works and will need to use generic terms to teach people how to read the entry.

Oh yeah. Flavorful names all the way.

So, for whatever reason, I’m not entirely clear what the stats mean, although I think I’m guessing right.
BUGBEAR (flavorful)
Dungeon Enc: 75% hunting party (2d4), 25% tribe (1d4 hunting parties)
Wilderness Enc: 75% warband (1d4 hunting parties), 25% village lair (1d10 warbands)
So the number in parenthesis are the total combatants right? In this case in the dungeon it says “hunting parties” in the dungeon for both the wandering group and the “tribe”. Tribe = lair right? So in the tribe/lair is hunting party a flavourful expression for all the tribes combatants?
Assuming I’m reading it right, I think its not very helpful to give specific roles to the combatants - better to let the DM decide if its a hunting party or warband or junior bugbears selling cookies. There’s probably a Ready Ref table for that…
Heh, I just realized my confusion is exactly what Tavis meant about explaining how the system works.
The other thing is, that, being designed for wilderness use, the % in Lair stat can give some wonky results when applied inside dungeons. That’s okay, but you might want to insert a rule to mitigate; somethig like “ignore the roll if it comes up twice in the same general location or a lair won’t fit the map”.

‘Assuming I’m reading it right, I think its not very helpful to give specific roles to the combatants - better to let the DM decide if its a hunting party or warband or junior bugbears selling cookies’
I like the ecological detail that can be finessed into the rules. I think you can imply the differences in culture and ecology by changing the terms.
Take Bugbears and Goblins:
Bugbear way of life is based upon the hunt - as females and young fight. That’s why they’ve evolved their stealth skills. They are more likely to be encountered in transit than at rest than Goblins. If you wanted Bugbears to have the main settlements in the wilderness then substitute ‘camp’ for dungeon lair:
BUGBEAR
Dungeon Enc: 75% hunting party (2d4), 25% camp (1d4 hunting parties)
Wilderness Enc: 75% warband (1d4 hunting parties), 25% tribal village (1d10 warbands)
I’d do the OPPOSITE with Goblins, as their permanent settlements would mostly be underground. Their wilderness lair is more temporary, implying that the warbands have formed a tribe (under strong leadership) - possibly for a specific purpose:
GOBLIN
Dungeon Enc: 60% hunting party (2d4), 40% lair (1d10 hunting parties)
Wilderness Enc: 60% warband (1d10 hunting parties), 40% tribal camp (1d10 warbands)

Hmm. I think Number Encountered is very understandable, it’s just the % in Lair that’s been confused over the years. I also think the ACKS description (and use) of % in Lair is fairly straightforward. Has there been confusion in play?
The % in Lair stat is directly used in populating mage dungeons and dynamic lairs, and this format makes it much less obvious. I also wonder how this format would present 0% in lair (Invisible Stalker, etc.) and if that might lead to a different confusion.
I also like the flavorful names and the implications of different descriptions, though. That’s a lot of information in a small package. I like the Dungeon vs. Wilderness numbers too, but the chance of finding a lair is the same in each, so there’s some data duplication there. There are also only three possible results, based on the examples, since dungeon lair and wilderness encounters are the same.
Hrm.

Sean wrote:
Take Bugbears and Goblins:
Bugbear way of life is based upon the hunt - as females and young fight. That’s why they’ve evolved their stealth skills. They are more likely to be encountered in transit than at rest than Goblins. If you wanted Bugbears to have the main settlements in the wilderness then substitute ‘camp’ for dungeon lair:
Oh I actually don’t see much trouble with the different names for lairs - that’s kinda cool. It’s the name of the excursion groups that’s tricky. Bugbears may indeed be heavily dependant on hunting for subsistence. Most “Hunting” is actually traping, but in any case hunting parties are almost invariably quite small, for good reason. Unless it is a group participating in a drive, in which case there could of course be hundreds. Naturalistically, hunter/gatherer groups will have a variety of task groups tailored to the desired function. For example, I presume that Bugbears use fire. Someone has to gather wood or coal or peate - whatever they use for fuel, on a daily basis. The “fuel” group may or may not be of very different numbers and composition than the “hunting” group. Indeed, the “hunters” are likely to only be out of camp a couple times a week - assuming they are successful - whereas the fuel group will almost certainly be out every day, unless they habitually take a large party with wagons periodically to a coal seam or some such. My point being that regardless of the subsistence system, settlement pattern, and tech type, any social group will be faced with numerous and varying communal tasks that will send members “wandering” in varying numbers. In my opinion, its a little odd, and unflavourful to label such with a single, unvarying activity. Maybe a possible idea would be to make a table of 10 or 12 most likely excursion activities along with factor to adjust the number encountered to fit the task group goals.

Undercrypt – your points on the above are correct. Part of the thought process behind the change is as part of a revision of treasure types so that we can assign treasure to, e.g., a hunting party.
Aldarron - The simple fact that so much can get read into “hunting party” is an argument against the terminology. I went with “hunting party” because it sounded less formal than “patrol” and had a nice tie-in to “adventuring party”. Other ideas were “gang” “crew” “squad” “team” “band” “raiding party”…

I’ve often wondered why the official D&D monster listing never seemed to progress much in formatting beyond “this started as a TXT file” single stat per line. (Maybe it did in 4E, I haven’t checked.) It seems like this would be a good place for a table (of the formatting kind). Something like this…
…|.Dungeon…|.Wilderness
----------------±----------------------±---------------------
No…Wandering…|.2d4…|.1d10.hunting.parties
Organization…|.Hunting.party…|.Warband
Treasure.Type…|.R…|.R
----------------±----------------------±---------------------
Found.in.Lair…|.40%…|.40%
No…in.Lair…|.1d10.hunting.parties…|.1d10.Warbands
Organization…|.Lair…|.Village
Treasure.Type…|.C…|.H
…except, you know, not ASCII text and periods for spaces. It might be easier to follow, and differing lair percentages and treasure types would be more obvious.

Alex - I suppose you could take a page from US frontier history and call them “Warriors” or maybe “fighters” would fit game terminology better, and remove the ambiguity.
Undercrypt - nice idea. I like tables, keeps it neat and clean.

I love this.