Lichdom and spellcasting

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1

From what I’ve read it seems that spellcasting ability and progression does not necessarily hold over when one becomes undead. Is this true? If so, how many “special abilities” would spell-casting count as for purposes of creating undead or crossbreeds?

I want to figure out how to make a lich. While many wizards look to lichdom as a way to extend their existence with the purpose of increasing their own magical knowledge and power, but it seems like becoming an undead might be a magical dead end (unless you’re Zaharan). How would you go about making a lich?

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Hi Nerdnumber1!

Divine spellcasting counts as one special ability (*) and arcane spellcasting counts as two special abilities (**).

 

This is discussed in "Additional Rules for Judges" under "Transformations":

A character transformed into undead gains all the abilities associated with his new monstrous form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like. If the undead’s Hit Dice are below the character’s former class level, its Hit Dice should be increased to the character’s former class level. A character transformed into an undead may increase in HD through adventuring. It requires 3,000xp plus 500xp per special ability (*) for a 1 HD monster to advance to 2 HD. The amount of XP required doubles with each HD (round values greater than 20,000xp to the nearest 1,000). 

 

 

At the Judge’s discretion, spellcasters transformed into intelligent undead may be able to retain their spellcasting abilities. If so, divine spellcasting counts as one special ability (*) and arcane spellcasting counts as two special abilities (**). As his Hit Dice increase, the transformed character’s spellcasting abilities will increase based on his prior class’s progression, subject to the class’s maximum level.

 

 

 

 

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Yeah, I saw that just recently after posting. Now as for cost and such. Does the spell-casting ability count just for purposes of XP or also for creation cost (and, more importantly, the cap on special abilities)? Put another way, if one turned a non-spellcaster into an intelligent undead (of a type that probably should retain casting like a vampire or lich) and an arcane spellcaster into the same exact type of intelligent undead, would the spellcaster cost more because he keeps his spellcasting, even though the process was, in theory, identical? Does the necromancer need to go through extra steps to ensure that the subject retains his or her casting?

Furthermore, what would you rate abilities like a phalactery (allowing automatic, if delayed, resurection), undead abilities, etc. (maybe paralysis or fear aura) in terms of “special abilities”? Something like a lich seems to be in danger of hitting ability cap quickly with ** for arcane casting.

Lastly, how do you set the turning roll for a custom undead? Is it HD, special abilities, xp, something else?

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“Does the spell-casting ability count just for purposes of XP or also for creation cost (and, more importantly, the cap on special abilities)? Put another way, if one turned a non-spellcaster into an intelligent undead (of a type that probably should retain casting like a vampire or lich) and an arcane spellcaster into the same exact type of intelligent undead, would the spellcaster cost more because he keeps his spellcasting, even though the process was, in theory, identical? Does the necromancer need to go through extra steps to ensure that the subject retains his or her casting?”

I fear that the rules are vaguely written here, and thus susceptible to many interpretations. My intended result (which can hardly be deduced from the rules) is that the necromancer must pay the additional cost and time for any special abilities granted due to the ability to cast spells being retained, but that this special ability cost does not count against the maximum number of special abilities that a necromancer may imbue.

EXAMPLE: Sebek would like to transform his minion Thaddeus, a 9th level mage, into an undead creature. Sebek is 14th level and has INT 18 (+3), so he can transform Thaddeus into an undead of up to 14 HD with up to . He opts to transform Thaddeus into a Vampire (9HD).

It will normally cost (2000gp x 9) + (5000gp x 4) 38,000gp and 38 days to transform Thaddeus into a vampire. The target value for Sebek’s magic research throw is increased by 7.

However, Sebek feels that Thaddeus’ spellcasting abilities are too useful to give up, so he takes the extra steps necessary to ensure these will be retained. These count as 2 extras special abilities. Therefore it costs (2000gp x 9) + (5000gp x 6) 48,000gp and 48 days to transform Thaddeus. The target value is increased by 9.

“Furthermore, what would you rate abilities like a phalactery (allowing automatic, if delayed, resurection), undead abilities, etc. (maybe paralysis or fear aura) in terms of “special abilities”? Something like a lich seems to be in danger of hitting ability cap quickly with ** for arcane casting.”

I would assign a lich between *** and **** special abilities, depending on which variant you are adapting (is its paralysis permanent, for instance?) A phylactery is a * special ability.

In general, the more powers a creature has, the less any one power is going to increase it by an *. For example, if a creature can both “control winds” and “telekinesis” this is not twice as helpful as just being able to do one or the other. The ability to both “lightning bolt” and “flame strike” is definitely not twice as good, etc. A Venerable Dragon which can cast arcane spells is a ***** creature.

“Lastly, how do you set the turning roll for a custom undead? Is it HD, special abilities, xp, something else?”

As a rule of thumb, start with its HD. Add 1HD if intelligent. Subtract 1HD if incorporeal. Add 1HD if it’s “hard to turn” or subtract 1HD if it’s “easy to turn”. (Judge’s choice). Compare the result to the following table:

Modified HD - Undead Turned As
1HD - Skeleton
2HD - Zombie
3HD - Ghoul
4HD - Wight
5HD - Wraith
6HD - Mummy
7HD - Spectre
8HD - Vampire
9HD - Infernal

EXAMPLE: A Zombie has 2HD. 2HD monsters are turned as Zombies.

EXAMPLE: A Ghoul has 2HD. It’s intelligent (+1HD). It’s effectively a 3HD monster. 3HD monsters are turned as Ghouls.

EXAMPLE: A Wight has 3HD. It’s intelligent (+1HD) so it’s a 4HD monster. 4HD monsters are turned as Wights.

EXAMPLE: A Mummy has 5HD. It’s intelligent (+1HD) so it’s a 6HD monster. 6HD monsters are turned as Mummies.

EXAMPLE: A Spectre has 7HD. It’s intelligent (+1HD) but it’s incorporeal (-1HD), so it’s at 7HD. 7HD monsters are turned as Spectres.

EXAMPLE: A Wraith has 4HD. It’s intelligent (+1HD), it’s incorporeal (-1HD), but it’s “hard to run” (+1HD) so it’s at 5HD.

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Excellent, this was exactly what I was looking for. It makes you pay for the magic, but doesn’t hobble your ability to get fun undead powers, too. As for what kind of lich, I was looking into what a mage could afford first (paralysis is nice, but not really as necessary as a phylactery for the lich concept).

I find it somewhat odd how liches and phylacteries are mentioned in the creating undead rules, but I couldn’t find lich in the monster section. Is it because each would-be lich has their own personal take and varient to their undead form and they are too rare to generalize, or did you just omit it by accident or to put in a future release? Since liches are (nearly) always the result of intentional transformation of a powerful mage, it makes sense that each have their own varient. Some may focus on a low-frills approach to better focus on their arcane study (few special abilities to tone down the xp costs) while another might want to be an invulnerable super-being able to fight without the aid of magic if need-be.

Do undead PCs and NPCs have monster attack progression in addition to character ability scores? That could get really nasty, good thing they have ridiculous xp costs to level-up. A lich would have attack roles better than a fighter and terrifying magic power.

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Glad to help you get sorted. Sorry the rules weren't as clear here as we aspire.

I ended up not putting the lich into the game because I hadn't worked up lich characteristics I liked yet. I will probably include a lich or lich-like monster in the Auran Empire supplement; liches played a prominent role in the campaign historically.

Yes, undead they get monster attack progression in addition to character ability scores. You can use the Player Companion rules to reduce the XP cost per level if you want to give the PCs a worse attack progression but faster XP curve. As written, the XP curve for undead is more of an explanation as to why the 1,000 year old lich isn't higher level than he is, than a viable route for PC speed.

 

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I think the crazy power curve is justified. Lichdom is not for everyone and going undead, while granting amazing power, can slow one’s development (but then again, you have nothing but time at that point). Dead men do not innovate and evolve as quickly as the living.

I am looking at vampires to get an idea for a lich, and noticed that they have everything but the kitchen sink, balanced by a large number of annoying, well-known, and often crippling weaknesses. How much, if at all, do such vulnerabilities cancel out special powers for purposes of undead creation? I plan on chucking most of the special powers and weaknesses for the lich, but I’m wondering how much I’ll have to compensate for getting rid of things like “spontaneous combustion in sunlight” and “having to sit helpless in a box all day long”.

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Sorry for the thread necromancy, but as it appears that anyone can become undead and continue to level (assuming access to the needed research ability), what is the purpose of After the Flesh? 

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ACKS was written before PC. ACKS states that it's at "the Judge's discretion."

After the Flesh specifies that the character does maintain his powers, even when transformed into a type of undead that doesn't normally allow it.

 

 

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My understanding is also that After the Flesh lets you keep all class powers, not just spellcasting, while ACKS Core says only that you may retain spellcasting at the Judge’s discretion.

So a fighter transformed into a vampire would lose their fighter damage bonus, but a Zaharan ruinguard vampire would keep the fighter damage bonus. (As well as all of their other varied class powers.)

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[quote="Aryxymaraki"] My understanding is also that After the Flesh lets you keep all class powers, not just spellcasting, while ACKS Core says only that you may retain spellcasting at the Judge's discretion. So a fighter transformed into a vampire would lose their fighter damage bonus, but a Zaharan ruinguard vampire would keep the fighter damage bonus. (As well as all of their other varied class powers.) [/quote]

 

Yes, that is 100% correct.

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Also - and correct me if I'm wrong - I believe any abilities granted by After the Flesh do not count against the maximum number of special abilities a Necromancer may impart to their creations.

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Also correct!