Really? Really?!?

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Jard
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Hi SenorOcho,

Specifically, Vox's campaign post calls out - a picture of the vile minions eating SJWs. That seems pretty hateful. His biases are very apparent and clear.

-RG


-Rhetorical Gamer

That reads as tongue-in-cheek to me. Even if someone were to be offended by it, I'm surprised that anyone who identifies so strongly as "SJW" would (or would plan to) associate with anything Alex does in the first place, having seen firsthand the borderline libel that crowd spewed at and about him during the GamerGate saga.


-SenorOcho
It's almost like people who don't identify as "SJW" still really dislike the term and when people constantly use the term.
SenorOcho
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Similarly, disliking the term and its use is a far cry from calling any usage of it 'hateful', or making demands regarding any form of association with those who do use it.

I have to say the right call has been made by allowing others to form a campaign of their own. The world is full of people running about with lit matches...

Rhetorical Gamer
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Hi SenorOcho,

Specifically, Vox's campaign post calls out - a picture of the vile minions eating SJWs. That seems pretty hateful. His biases are very apparent and clear.

-RG


-Rhetorical Gamer

That reads as tongue-in-cheek to me. Even if someone were to be offended by it, I'm surprised that anyone who identifies so strongly as "SJW" would (or would plan to) associate with anything Alex does in the first place, having seen firsthand the borderline libel that crowd spewed at and about him during the GamerGate saga.


-SenorOcho

It's almost like people who don't identify as "SJW" still really dislike the term and when people constantly use the term.


-Jard

 

Yeah... I don't identify as an SJW but I am liberal-leaning. And GamerGate was a disaster for all parties. No one came out of that scuffle looking good. But as liberal gamer, I love ACKS. My politics had/have nothing to do with what system I like to game with. My politics have to do with whether or not I can support someone that even Alex identifies as an "internet troll and extremist" who actively spreads hateful views and pats himself on the back for it. There's a difference.

James C. Bennett
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This is brilliant, Alex. Three cheers.

Alex
The Autarch
Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

Gentlemen, please. You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!

It's certainly true that a large number of progressive gamers took umbrage with my stance on GamerGate, but they're neither the first nor last group to take umbrage with me, so I bear them no particular ill will. Umbragers gonna umbrage. 

It's also true that Vox Day's "eating SJWs" was tongue-in-cheek, not a literal art order I'm putting in the book, but equally true that the joke was at the expense of those who support social justice as an important moral mandate, so I get why they don't find it funny. Again, the actual art in the game will not be political.  

In general, let's not presume the politics of any of our backers or players. As long as you support adventuring and conquest, don't mind a goddess of love and war served by scantily-clad bladedancers, and understand why halflings should not be a default PC race, you are welcome here.

 

 

Jard
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Thanks for giving me a chuckle Alex. Sorry for my earlier pithy response, I don't get as wordy when on my phone. For what it's worth, this die hard liberal isn't going anywhere as long as you do what you said you'll do with regards to ensuring the dark lord art requests all make sense in the book and don't denigrate anyone.

Alex
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Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

Thanks for giving me a chuckle Alex. Sorry for my earlier pithy response, I don't get a wordy on my phone. For what it's worth, this die hard liberal isn't going anywhere as long as you do what you said you'll do with regards to ensuring the dark lord art requests all make sense in the book and don't denigrate anyone.

-Jard

Thanks! You're with me on the halfling thing though right?

ZeroSum
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Thanks! You're with me on the halfling thing though right?


-Alex

That depends on whether or not you've got the right kind of marinade to baste them with.

 

Shub-Nullgurath
Joined: 2017-02-13 01:22

It's also true that Vox Day's "eating SJWs" was tongue-in-cheek, not a literal art order I'm putting in the book, but equally true that the joke was at the expense of those who support social justice as an important moral mandate, so I get why they don't find it funny. Again, the actual art in the game will not be political.  


-Alex

Just give all the person he's eating very brightly coloured haired.

and just forget the fact that the book is black and white

Dr Pete
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Wicked Witch. Evil Queen. White Witch. The seduction of a "Dark Lord" who is not a military leader is really more of a female thing, is it not? I'd remove much of my objection if this were a "Dark Mistress" class in the Auran Empire and in the book art, since it would be much less an attempt to reflect a real life dude. Can we all get behind that?
Alex
The Autarch
Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

Dr. Pete, there is actually already a Warmistress class in the book. It's awesome. Excerpt below.

******************************************************************

By the grace of the goddess of love, warmistresses possess alluring beauty. A warmistress gains a +2 bonus on reaction rolls with NPCs who are potentially attracted to her. If this bonus results in a total of 12 or more, the subjects act as if charmed while in her presence. Creatures with a WIS greater than the warmistress’s CHA are immune to this power (and the warmistress will know they are immune). This bonus stacks with Mystic Aura and/or Seduction proficiency.

Through teasing, taunting, and flirting, a warmistress can use her alluring beauty to provoke the passions of an intelligent creature that is potentially attracted to her. Provoking the passions of a creature requires one round (10 seconds), during which time the warmistress must remain stationary and take no other action. A creature must be within 30’ of the warmistress and able to both see and hear her in order to be the target of provocation. The targeted creature must make a saving throw versus Spells. The Judge may grant bonuses or penalties to the saving throw depending on circumstances, the temperament of the creature, and its training or familiarity with the warmistress. If the save succeeds, the creature is not provoked. If the save fails, the creature is provoked for 1d4 rounds plus 1 round per level of the warmistress.

The effect of provocation depends on the creature’s current reaction to the warmistress (see ACKS, p. 99). A hostile creature will become enraged, attacking the warmistress in preference to all others without regard for its own safety for the duration of the provocation. An unfriendly creature will become hostile, seeking to verbally or physically harass the warmistress for the duration. A neutral creature will become distracted, ignoring other duties or activities to pay attention to the warmistress for the duration. An indifferent creature will become friendly, seeking to assist the warmistress for the duration. A friendly creature will become enamored, helping the warmistress as if charmed for the duration of the provocation. If the warmistress or one of her allies attacks a creature while it is provoked, it immediately becomes enraged.

When a warmistress reaches 5th level (Maiden of War), her fiery spirit inspires those around her to do great deeds. Any henchmen and mercenaries attracted to the warmistress gain a +1 bonus to their morale score whenever she is present. This bonus stacks with any other modifiers from the warmistress’s Charisma or proficiencies.

At 9th level (Lady of War), a warmistress can build or conquer a stronghold and establish herself as the ruler of a domain. (Rules for strongholds and domains are detailed in the Campaign chapter of ACKS. ) When she does so, she will attract 1d4+1x10 0th level mercenaries and 1d6 fighters, explorers, or warmistresses of 1st-3rd level to her service. Worshipping the warmistress as if she were a living goddess, these zealous followers are completely loyal (morale +4) and need not be paid wages, though they must still be provided food and lodging.

*********************************

Jard
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Alex, I'm with you.  I never could put into words what I disliked about halflings before I read your take.  My main complaint is that they're supposed to be small/weak, but I started with 3.x and so inevitably the highest damage dealer was some bizarrely kitted out halfling which always bugged me.  I think the last straw for me was the Pathfinder Cavalier, a class built on charging with a lance, where it inevitably made more sense to take the minor strength hit to be a halfling so you could ride a mount that could actually come with you into the dungeon.

Wicked Witch. Evil Queen. White Witch. The seduction of a "Dark Lord" who is not a military leader is really more of a female thing, is it not? I'd remove much of my objection if this were a "Dark Mistress" class in the Auran Empire and in the book art, since it would be much less an attempt to reflect a real life dude. Can we all get behind that?

-DrPete

A dark lord is a well established trope, although I've always assumed it was less about your abilities and more about your state of mind.  Wizards and Clerics can easily be dark lords.  Mechanically, minion masters are a time honored tradition that, alongside heal-over-time spells, have never been able to make a satisfying jump from videogames to pen & paper.  Conceptually, it's fine.  

 

The WEIRD part is how strongly this guy identifies with being a dark overlord.  And not just a sympathetic or dynamic villain, the world is full of pubescant boys with the Joker as their online avatar.  No, everything that came up involved him referring to himself as the dark lord, as well as an unhealthy obsession with a certain political figure he refers to as "God-Emperor".

 

Now I'm going to nip in the bud that, between what I just said and people's objections to the faceless minions eating SJWs the idea that "this liberal has no sense of humor."  To Quote Meatwad from Aqua Teen Hunger Force: "I get it. It ain't makin' me laugh but I get it."  I understand that the "joke" is that the "SJWs" consider him so awful that they think they're ACTUALLY being consumed.  

 

I've got some analysis on this topic to make in the form of two points.  

First: Fantasy games and art are full of jokes.  the DCC rulebook features a piece of art of a female warrior in a chainmail bikini next to a fully armored fighter asking "why does your armor give the same AC?".  These are plays on existing tropes that have emerged from play.  The SJW "joke" is inserting humor not largely shared by the tabletop audience, and even for those who get it, I don't think it's unreasonable to say it's a bigger challenge to suspension of disbelief than most jokes.  

Second, I have had the misfortune of sharing hobbies with people like this elsewhere, especially Paradox grand strategy games.  It's all fun and "DEUS VULT" and "0/10 did not Remove Kebab" until someone actually spraypaints "Deus Vult, Saracens Go Home" on a mosque in europe.  There are a few (just a few, I'm not making broad strokes here) who are happy to use the smokescreen of fake awful humor as a way to test out their actually awful beliefs. They know they can retreat into irony if someone responds with "oh god, that's horrible".  I'm not saying we should give up on awful humor, what I'm saying is the people who go "wow, this guy is messed up" are not necessarily overly sensitive or humorless when they're suspicious of guys like him.

 

But as I re-itereated earlier in the thread: I'm not going anywhere.  This is my hobby too. Theodore doesn't get to taint my association with a game I love just because he has a lot of people willing to spend money on his behalf.  I don't think less of my name being in Sinister Stone of Sakkara as compared to my other backer listings because that one happens to share space with him.  If he bought the same car as me, I wouldn't feel compelled to buy a different car (maybe I would if he was being paid to promote the car).  I certainly considered it when I first learned about this guy, though, so I hold no judgement for people who decided to withdraw their pledges, and I hope they won't think less of those of us who choose to stay.

 

Anyway, ranting aside: I'll re-iterate a question.  If I go into the comments and type "For the Chosen One" or "I'm one with the Force, the Force is with me" or whatever, do I have to pledge additional money to contribute to the goal, or does some/all of my existing pledge get put into a bucket?

 

Alex
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Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

To clarify how I handled this - I tallied up total pledges based on the marginal value (e.g. after cost of billing, goods, and shipping is substracted). That way I ensured that Autarch's needs were met. Everything remaining in the pledge then got "allocated" towards the expense of the tier. It works out to about 70% of pledge for most pledge levels. Last I checked the "Dark Lord" pledge value was at $2,133 or about twice the amount of $1,000 needed. 

I had intended it to be as a way to excite new backers, of course, but I'm perfectly happy to retroactively "assign" a pledge too, and have taken note of those who've pledged For the Light on the KS. After all once we get into bonus goal territory (like we are now) the Kickstarter becomes highly profitable so absorbing the cost of some B&W illustrations and design work in order to make people feel good about the product they receive is A-OK to me.  

The pledge drive idea is actually sufficiently interesting that I might try something in future campaigns, like offering two options "A" and "B" to go in the book and whichever side gets pledged the most is what I'll choose. Preferably something less controversial next time, like a cover design. 

Aryxymaraki
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Mechanically, minion masters are a time honored tradition that, alongside heal-over-time spells, have never been able to make a satisfying jump from videogames to pen & paper.  Conceptually, it's fine.  

 


-Jard

Unrelated: I feel a big reason why heal over time (and damage over time) effects have never made a satisfying jump to tabletop is because of the way time is tracked.

A round is simply too long of a time for it to feel impactful and really be over-time. A Hackmasteresque system, that tracks seconds instead of rounds, or a more abstract version that tracks 'ticks' (that I have thought about but never done anything with), I feel would be much more likely to be able to bet DoT and HoT effects to feel good because they would continue to do things at times when the caster could not directly take actions themselves.

Jard
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Mechanically, minion masters are a time honored tradition that, alongside heal-over-time spells, have never been able to make a satisfying jump from videogames to pen & paper.  Conceptually, it's fine.  

 


-Jard

Unrelated: I feel a big reason why heal over time (and damage over time) effects have never made a satisfying jump to tabletop is because of the way time is tracked. A round is simply too long of a time for it to feel impactful and really be over-time. A Hackmasteresque system, that tracks seconds instead of rounds, or a more abstract version that tracks 'ticks' (that I have thought about but never done anything with), I feel would be much more likely to be able to bet DoT and HoT effects to feel good because they would continue to do things at times when the caster could not directly take actions themselves.


-Aryxymaraki

Ahhhh, now there's the kind of discussions you expect to see on these boards.  

It's probably my fault, I found an old monkey's paw that granted wishes and I said "I wish there was more posting on the Autarch Forums" while holding it.

GMJoe
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Ahhhh, now there's the kind of discussions you expect to see on these boards.  

It's probably my fault, I found an old monkey's paw that granted wishes and I said "I wish there was more posting on the Autarch Forums" while holding it.


-Jard

Monkeys' paws generally aren't too bad, in my experience. Compared to some GMs' wish spells, anyway. I've had players who were so badly burned by wish spells that I could grant them exactly what they wanted and asked for with no side effect, and they'd freak out wondering what the hidden catch is and when it would appear. I remember a guy I knew once handed me a proposed wish spell he'd written up that was intended to get him the Wand of Orcus without side effects... It had so many clauses. And his attempt to protect himself didn't work; The GM siezed on the multiple possible meanings of 'appear' in order to present him with an intangible illusion surrounded by an impenetrible wall of force.

Myself, I cut my GMing chops running Paranoia. It was a great game... And more impotantly for this discussion, it taught me when not to "creatively interpret" a player's wishes. See, Paranoia's robot NPCs are frequently either painfully or malevolently literal, so attempting to command an AI in that game is a minefield... And there's nothing like saturation to teach you when making things hard can be counter-productive.

On an unrelated note, I'm amazed how civil the discussion in this thread has been.

ZeroSum
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On an unrelated note, I'm amazed how civil the discussion in this thread has been.


-GMJoe

I'm not. We're all good Lawful folk 'bout these parts. Neutral at worst. :)

Beedo
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I for one put my vote FOR THE SHIRE.  Nothing says 'old school oddity' quite like a front-rank of heavily armored halfling warriors, cap-a-pie in BX 60gp plate mail, terrorizing enemies in a 10' wide passage with their nigh unhittable armor class (and of course, a 2nd rank of spearmen or pole arm users that strike above the halfling's heads).  "Little killers", we used to call them.  It's high time these doughty warriors take their place as the fearsome combat terrors we love and need.

Kidding aside, this whole episode about the internet-troll supporting ACKS forced me to get some mental distance about what's going on.  You have a project backer (the trollish character) who's bringing dollars to the table and lots of support, and in turn gets direction on an art order.  Our beloved publisher has assured us the book will be apolitical, professional, and the art will be appropriate to the genre.  The thing that got under my skin was 'the dark lord' boasting to his sycophants that the art would depict him or his minions destroying what he calls 'SJW's'.  Whatever.  At the end of the day, I'm confident a cool picture of an evil overlord will end up enhancing the book and fitting the genre, and I'm just going to ignore the drivel.  Gaming can transcend politics and there's a lot of good stuff going on here.  More backers brings us that much closer to The Little Killers.

Besides, I think we're missing the point on who is the real evil genius in all this - he's got sides bidding up their campaigns to back new character classes, he's dangling hard cover books to lure the reticent (I got sucked into King, too).  Your strings are getting pulled and you’re all doing the Kickstarter Dance, people!  I'm on to you, Alex.

Alex
The Autarch
Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

I for one put my vote FOR THE SHIRE.  Nothing says 'old school oddity' quite like a front-rank of heavily armored halfling warriors, cap-a-pie in BX 60gp plate mail, terrorizing enemies in a 10' wide passage with their nigh unhittable armor class (and of course, a 2nd rank of spearmen or pole arm users that strike above the halfling's heads).  "Little killers", we used to call them.  It's high time these doughty warriors take their place as the fearsome combat terrors we love and need.

Kidding aside, this whole episode about the internet-troll supporting ACKS forced me to get some mental distance about what's going on.  You have a project backer (the trollish character) who's bringing dollars to the table and lots of support, and in turn gets direction on an art order.  Our beloved publisher has assured us the book will be apolitical, professional, and the art will be appropriate to the genre.  The thing that got under my skin was 'the dark lord' boasting to his sycophants that the art would depict him or his minions destroying what he calls 'SJW's'.  Whatever.  At the end of the day, I'm confident a cool picture of an evil overlord will end up enhancing the book and fitting the genre, and I'm just going to ignore the drivel.  Gaming can transcend politics and there's a lot of good stuff going on here.  More backers brings us that much closer to The Little Killers.

Besides, I think we're missing the point on who is the real evil genius in all this - he's got sides bidding up their campaigns to back new character classes, he's dangling hard cover books to lure the reticent (I got sucked into King, too).  Your strings are getting pulled and you’re all doing the Kickstarter Dance, people!  I'm on to you, Alex.


-Beedo

Thanks! This was well put and is a good summation of things. 

The illustration of the Dark Lord class is just going to be a picture of me next to my Kickstarter crowdfunding total. Hehe.

 

chalicier
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The illustration of the Dark Lord class is just going to be a picture of me next to my Kickstarter crowdfunding total. Hehe.

-Alex

"I love the smell of Internet bunfights in the morning. Smells like... victory!"

 

 

chalicier
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On an unrelated note, I'm amazed how civil the discussion in this thread has been.

-GMJoe

I'm not. There aren't any political brownie points to be won in the thread, since Alex is maintaining Glorious Neutrality; more importantly, the numbers of people engaged in the argument seem relatively even to either side, and a number of people have already expressed a desire to not see this descend into a political row. 

End result is that the social status cost/benefit ratio of sticking the boot in is skewed towards cost, and these chimp-brains of ours are really good at making that sort of calculation without conscious input, so people instinctively don't do it.

 

Azraele
Joined: 2016-09-20 15:47

... As long as you support adventuring and conquest, don't mind a goddess of love and war served by scantily-clad bladedancers, and understand why halflings should not be a default PC race, you are welcome here.

-Alex

 

Seriously though, screw halflings.

chalicier
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Cake-huffing little bastards, the lot of 'em.

ZeroSum
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Death, reanimation, followed by second death's too good for 'em.

Dave
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It's late, and doesn't change anything, but I want to say I fully support Alex in this.

Here's where I'm at in general, and it's got nothing to do with Vox specifically, or even with Autarch (which probably doesn't endorse what I'm about to say).  It has to do with seeing gaming forums start to declare opinions and people beyond the pale, and what I've seen is that doesn't stop.  There's a neverending stream of people fed to the alligators of banning, until it's just a circle-jerk of approved opinions.

This isn't a unique feature of gaming forums; it's part of a general social trend that's just copied over into our little niche.  It's part of the trend to exile wrong-thinkers from polite society.  But you're not actually changing minds, you're just training people to shut their mouths and keep their heads down.

For those who don't keep their mouths shut, social ostracization is just the opener.  Step two is to come for their livelihoods.  It's not enough to not hang out with them, they need to be fired, or their business boycotted.  Because making a living is too much to allow a wrong-thinker.

And what I can't help but notice is that today, it's mostly one side of the political divide that's willing to cut off friendships and end peoples' livelihoods.  However politely and reasonably Rhetorical Gamer and Verita express themselves above, that is the game they're playing.  "No association with the extremists, and we get to define who the extremists are."  Well, I'm done with that.  Your side has already spent that currency.  I've seen it too many times before, and I'm fed up with it.  The only people on any side I'm going to boycott or cut off are the people who use boycotts and ostracism.  Anyone else, I don't have to defend them, endorse their positions or excuse myself in order to associate with them in a thing we used to call "civil society."  A civil society that Rhetorical Gamer and Verita above have rejected, however measured the terms they try to express it in here.

Dr Pete
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With respect... the new thing here is not people shunning racists. It's the racists asking people to tolerate their "wrongthink". Abhorrent views are abhorrent. It's not "brave" it's just gross. Many people don't want it here, but they also don't want to have to argue about whether it's ok because "please take it somewhere else"
Alex
The Autarch
Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

Dave, DrPete - I appreciate that both of you have maintained a respectful tone here.

General question for all of you. Would you prefer that I:

  1. Lock this thread since a plan of action has been established
  2. Leave this thread open but only specifically for THIS issue
  3. Leave this thread open for general (polite) political discussion
  4. Seize power in the White House and institute a new regime that balances stronghold development with urban investment, rural investment, magic research, and festivals.

I'm for #4 but it might need a bigger Kickstarter so we can retain Edward Luttwak

 

Jard
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I see plusses and minuses to 1-3 and can't say which one I think is the better solution.  Therefore #4 can be the only choice.

golan2072
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  1. Seize power in the White House and institute a new regime that balances stronghold development with urban investment, rural investment, magic research, and festivals.


-Alex

Change the law that requires a US president to be US-born and you can have Conan the Terminator on the American Throne!

Dr Pete
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I think we can just agreen that "current host of the Apprentice" should be in the line of succession going forward... I do want to apologize for my lack of civility on this issue. I've been discovering my inner paladin. As to the thread, I guess I'm neutral. I would be interested in the occasional update on the competition between the two sides, but I don't need to hear people keep visiting the boards to say "White nationalists are people, too. Please don't be mad at us." or "You guys are the intolerant ones for not being cool with it"
Antiquities
Joined: 2013-07-05 19:55

Dave, DrPete - I appreciate that both of you have maintained a respectful tone here.

General question for all of you. Would you prefer that I:

  1. Lock this thread since a plan of action has been established
  2. Leave this thread open but only specifically for THIS issue
  3. Leave this thread open for general (polite) political discussion
  4. Seize power in the White House and institute a new regime that balances stronghold development with urban investment, rural investment, magic research, and festivals.

I'm for #4 but it might need a bigger Kickstarter so we can retain Edward Luttwak

 


-Alex
You forgot 5. Start passing around the ostraka in the finest tradition of Greek democracy. [/sarcasm]

Alex
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Since you should mentioned "inner paladin". I actually wrote an extensive essay a few years ago attempting to establish the link between real-world moral theory and D&D alignments. You can find it here: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/tabletop/checkfortraps/838...

By my assessment, using that system, Kantian (deontological) ethicists are lawful good, Augustinian ethicists are lawful good, Rothbardian libertarians are lawful neutral, Ancient Assyrians are lawful evil, Roman stoics are neutral good, Thomist ethicists are neutral good, rule-based utilitarians are neutral good, Randian libertarians are true neutral, Aristotelian virtue ethicists are true neutral, LeVeyan Satanists are neutral evil, Act-based utilitarians are chaotic good, pleasure-seeking hedonists are chaotic neutral, and Nietzschean ubermensches are chaotic evil. (Of course the alignments are named from the lawful good perspective; the article explains that chaotic evil might call it the pragmatic/dogmatic axis and the cunning/chump axis, etc., so chaotic evil is pragmatic and cunning, while lawful good is dogmatic chump.)

(And I myself am philosophically True Neutral, being a committed Aristotelian with heavy influence from Thomism, Stoicism and Objectivism.)

Everyone can now officially be thankful I just went with Law, Neutral, Chaos for ACKS :D

 

Antiquities
Joined: 2013-07-05 19:55

I suppose an Epicurean hedonist would be neutral good, since they seek moderation in all things and believe that what matters is the total balance of pleasure of one's network of friends, rather than solely one's immediate happiness.

Alex
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Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

I suppose an Epicurean hedonist would be neutral good, since they seek moderation in all things and believe that what matters is the total balance of pleasure of one's network of friends, rather than solely one's immediate happiness.


-The Dark

Yes, I think that's right. Just so.

Ulfhrafn
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Everyone can now officially be thankful I just went with Law, Neutral, Chaos for ACKS :D


-Alex

Thank you for that. I mean it.

Tywyll
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So here's a question-

If 'For the Light' gets to the $1000 dollar goal, can we pick out pictures to go in the book in addition to the content? If so, who gets to pick them out?

I find everything about Theodor or whatever his name is horrifying and distasteful. Receiving a commendation from his company has the same weight to me as getting a commendation from any other racist or sexist organization. Its not something that should be encouraged.

Since he's gaming the system to get art he is not otherwise purchasing, can For the Light do the same? It seems only fair.

I for one would like to see a full page illustration of the Champion (or whatever the good class is) killing the DarkLord and his mates.

Jard
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I assumed if this gimmick caused any additional art, the descriptions picked would be optimized to portray various forms of "The chosen one".  You'd have your not-david slaying a not-goliath, your not-luke looking wistfully over a burned settlement in the desert (obviously sans lightsaber), etc.

part of me thinks the obvious answer is for Alex or the potential artists to make a series of proposed depictions, with or without rough sketches, and have those who contributed to the light campaign do some kind of voting. knowing Alex he'd probably find some way to weight the votes proportional to contribution to the goal, but I don't think that's strictly necessary.

The other part almost thinks that a proper repudiation would be to have the art be full of diverse portrayals of people being heroic; persons of color and self-rescuing princesses.  But I ultimately have to reject that notion because I don't believe variety of portrayals and wanting everyone to have the chance to see themselves as the hero should be a political issue. In fact, it's Mr. Beale who accuses sci-fi and sci-fantasy novels of being political for doing exactly that.  At least that was the impression I got in the portion of his blog I could stomach to read.

Ultimately, my hope is that this rises above a mere repudiation but is also pretty cool.  I hope that if some conservative leaning (ie: not extremist) gamer with no prior knowledge of this kerfluffle picked up this book, they could look at the chosen one portion of the book and say "hey, that's pretty cool".

 

Receiving a commendation from his company has the same weight to me as getting a commendation from any other racist or sexist organization.


-Tywyll

We should all be thankful there has never been a severe misunderstanding of the title of this game by the dudes from "Return of Kings" :-P

 

Rhetorical Gamer
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And what I can't help but notice is that today, it's mostly one side of the political divide that's willing to cut off friendships and end peoples' livelihoods.  However politely and reasonably Rhetorical Gamer and Verita express themselves above, that is the game they're playing.  "No association with the extremists, and we get to define who the extremists are."  Well, I'm done with that.  Your side has already spent that currency.  I've seen it too many times before, and I'm fed up with it.  The only people on any side I'm going to boycott or cut off are the people who use boycotts and ostracism.  Anyone else, I don't have to defend them, endorse their positions or excuse myself in order to associate with them in a thing we used to call "civil society."  A civil society that Rhetorical Gamer and Verita above have rejected, however measured the terms they try to express it in here.

As Dr. Pete says, with all due respect... I'm not asking to be allowed to define who the "bad guys" are. I would like to think that in a civil society - as you describe - we would understand that people like Vox Day are, in fact, abhorrent and actively do damage to that civil society.

Again - as Alex outlined in his response letter (to me originally) there is no question that Day is a self-congratulatory troll and extremist. Why would you want to associate with that would be my question?

And as Alex brought it up... his examples of working with/hiring others that were considered objectionable because of something about them (transgender) is not the same as working with Vox Day. Day actively chooses to be hateful and do damage. A transgender person is harming no one by existing.

So - forgive me - but I choose to believe that to truly have a civil society, people like Vox Day are allowed to say whatever they want but actions have consequences - and people who speak out against those who willing want to be "the Dark Lord" are trying hard to make that civil society a little more civil.

Alex
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Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

I do intend to allow art related to The Chosen One, yes. I will not allow the art of either character to be shown murdering anyone recognizable or specific. Piles of corpses are fine, of course, and have appeared in the past, but actual murderous killing of a specific person would be both in bad taste, and outside the scope of what I permit in ACKS art. 

As far as the artwork and class design - both "the Dark Lord" and "the Chosen One" have quietly received the support of very generous backers that more than cover the required costs and my plan is to work with those persons as well as the campaign creators as my proxies for the final outcome.

Rhetorical Gamer, I understand your decision not to fund us. A man has to follow his alignment where it leads him.

Dr Pete
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How about a Darth Vader-esque conversion scene? :) Fair enough. The Chosen backers, I think, are eager to see the "defeat" of the Dark Lord, but I don't think that has to mean a picture of a recognizable real life person being killed. His dark tower aflame, army defeated, etc, kind of covers it, no?
CharlesDM
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I am not an artist, but I get the impression death and destruction is challenging to pull off, especially in a pencil/black and white medium. I'd prefer art that is evocative of what is about to happen. For example, being of a LotR leaning at the moment, I think of a slight, warrior woman who has thrown her helmet aside, sword outstretched to challenge an imposing lord riding upon an intimidating beast.

Alex
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Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

How about a Darth Vader-esque conversion scene? :) Fair enough. The Chosen backers, I think, are eager to see the "defeat" of the Dark Lord, but I don't think that has to mean a picture of a recognizable real life person being killed. His dark tower aflame, army defeated, etc, kind of covers it, no?

-DrPete

Of course, very possible. 

Alex
The Autarch
Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

I am not an artist, but I get the impression death and destruction is challenging to pull off, especially in a pencil/black and white medium. I'd prefer art that is evocative of what is about to happen. For example, being of a LotR leaning at the moment, I think of a slight, warrior woman who has thrown her helmet aside, sword outstretched to challenge an imposing lord riding upon an intimidating beast.

-CharlesDM

Yes, that is generally the art style I prefer as well. 

Jard
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Those both sound like pretty fantastic art descriptions.  I can't believe I forgot about "I am no man" as an iconic example of a chosen one!  Bonus points if she is also a gnome named Anne.

SenorOcho
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I don't need to hear people keep visiting the boards to say "White nationalists are people, too. Please don't be mad at us." or "You guys are the intolerant ones for not being cool with it"

-DrPete

Have you considered that maybe not everyone who disagrees with you is a white nationalist or a *-ist, and that your knee-jerk tossing of such labels around is exactly where people take issue with your line of argument? Frankly, it's the root of why the left is in such shambles across the Western world.

Signed, a lefty who's been losing hair over how any actual leftist thought has been purged from "the left"...

Dr Pete
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Ummmm... a 5 minute scan through Vox's blog revealed that he promotes white nationalism. I'm not exaggerating, I'm describing the facts on the ground. If you are a supporter of his movement, you might want to take a moment and ask yourself why all your fellow travellers seem so racist. What do you think they mean by all those things they say?

Edit: to be specific, from his alt right manifesto:

The Alt Right is openly and avowedly nationalist. It supports all nationalisms and the right of all nations to exist, homogeneous and unadulterated by foreign invasion and immigration.

The Alt Right believes we must secure the existence of white people and a future for white children.

Etc...

To be clear, I think I'm saying that that kind of guy is not cool, and that kind of guy doesn't belong. It's not "tolerance" to be cool with that rhetoric. We really are dealing with normalizing white nationalism here, not just general political correctness.

SenorOcho
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Now you're assuming that I support him or his movement, which is interesting.

Vox Day is just a silly jackass who gets his ego stroked by people like you who have elevated him to some sort of supervillain status, a role that he is more than happy to play to keep you angry at him. An internet troll, remember? You're so swept up in this notion of "paladinhood" that you've forgotten that you're taking the bait as hard as you possibly can, and are doubling down when called on it.

Dr Pete
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You're right, I misinterpreted what you were saying. I thought you were disagreeing with the label white nationalist for Vox Day and his followers. You were just disagreeing with it for his defenders...?
SenorOcho
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Not just defenders, but for anyone who thinks that "hey, people should be allowed to play and make contributions to games regardless of their personal politics".

But really, I find it hard to believe that 'progressives' really oppose that kind of rhetoric when the reaction is always to shout insults and block/ban/cut off/etc.. At best, you're just putting a lid on it and then acting surprised when the pot boils over. At worst, you're actively feeding and playing into their version of the narrative...

Dr Pete
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I had paid very little attention to this until the dark lord campaign. Looking over his blog, there's an article about "entryism"... He's talking about transferring representation, but it applies to racism as well. There are people interested in moving the bounds of acceptable conversation. On the left, this might include getting a trans person on TV (or whatever) and getting people "used" to it, so it becomes more ok. The mirror to this is racism... people on the racist right want to "normalize" racist ideas, and move them into the mainstream. The time to oppose that "normalization" is when they poke their nose into the tent.

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