Really? Really?!?

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SenorOcho
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Am I incorrect in reading that as you wishing to enforce what is and is not acceptable conversation? Are you actively choosing to forget that the majority of gains found in equal rights were only possible due to the freedom of speech that you, I, and even 'deplorables' enjoy?

You should be very, very careful in conflating this kind of "we should cut off all these people" behavior with "opposition". Opposition is engaging these people and soundly defeating them in the marketplace of ideas. It should be a simple enough task if their ideas are so low, right?

I'll also say straightforward that the 'normalization' argument is a load of garbage. The only thing you accomplish by tabooing a subject is increasing its appeal; "Oh, they don't want me to hear what this person has to say, let's check that out!"... and then, because you've refused to show up to the debate, you end up losing by default as their words stand unchecked. The examples of this throughout human history are countless, and one would hope that people would have learned from the Streisand Effect as it also occurs over, and over...

I'll reiterate: The kind of over-reaction that led to this thread is exactly what Vox Day revels in, and exactly what gave him a name or a following to begin with.

Dr Pete
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Fair enough. I disagree that we need to discuss how humans living alongside elves and dwarves in peace will inevitably lead to victory for the orcs, but if they want to, I'll debate them. I think it's obviously ludicrous.
Jard
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SenorOcho I have to say that I feel you are blowing the response in this specific thread out of proportion.  Is it possible you may be projecting onto it injustices you have seen in other forums (perhaps RPG.net)?  What I saw was a number of people expressing concerns that Vox Day would not merely be playing and backing like everyone else, but inserting his agenda into the game itself, which up until now everyone playing had managed to avoid doing.  After Alex assured the concerned parties that he would keep any requests consistent with the tone and style of existing products, a few people personally and publicly decided that was still too much for them, and some of the other concerned parties accepted his reassurance while reiterating that they don't like the guy or what he stands for.  At no point did anyone who decided to keep backing chastise those who withdrew, and they returned the consideration.  To top it off, a counter campaign was started among those who remained, perhaps with a hint of snubbing, but mostly with the intent to provide another class that fits with the theme of heroic fantasy.

Honestly, I'm not sure what kind of better response you expected.  And it kind of baffles me because I am also of the opinion that silencing dissent is ineffective and just drives these ideas underground where you can't see them and debate them in the open. It's kind of bizarre for me to see you express the same ideals I consider myself to hold while having what seems like the exact opposite reaction to this thread as me.

SenorOcho
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Don't misunderstand me, I think Alex's response to this has been top notch, and have no problem at all with the counter-campaign-- more content is fantastic! I simply felt a need to respond to certain comments from a couple members I felt as being outlandish and/or outright extremist in their own right. Taking my own advice and trying to present the entirety of my stance, if you will.

Fair enough. I disagree that we need to discuss how humans living alongside elves and dwarves in peace will inevitably lead to victory for the orcs, but if they want to, I'll debate them. I think it's obviously ludicrous.

-DrPete
The first step is to recognize that we're all human around here. If you have no empathy, are you really any better than the orcs?
Dr Pete
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I'm not sure where this is going, but I don't think these arguments improve if you replace fantasy races with real ones. You're right, I see little value in hashing through arguments about these things. I would find a different group if my group turned out to be full of white supremacists. Not interested in "debate" with that. Slavery was bad. The holocaust was bad. If we can't agree on such basic things, it's time to move on.
SenorOcho
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Have you found people honestly suggesting otherwise? If not, that's one hell of a strawman, and exactly what I'm talking about.

Most of what I've seen on the right is nothing more than them picking up the same identity politics cudgel that's been used to bludgeon them for decades. As a liberal, identity politics is something I'm against in general-- we should all be treated as equal individuals. But some seem to think that the only response is to try to hit them *harder* with said cudgel, which is just feeding the destructive cycle...

Dr Pete
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I think that we may be talking at cross purposes. Yes, I agree that calling people who don't actually espoused those values is counterproductive. These people are actually talking about things on this truly racist spectrum. Things like: tolerance of different ethnic groups leads to civilizational collapse, certain races will need several more generations before they will be ready for civilization, etc. It is racist garbage that deserves strong condemnation, and I don't understand why you are defending it...
SenorOcho
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You seem to think that tyranny is fought with more tyranny, that hate is fought with more hate. The entire point is that you could not be more wrong. At best you just replace one form of hate with another, and at worst you just throw more fuel on the fire and empower the very groups you claim to be fighting. Which are you aiming for?

Dr Pete
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I hear ya. I think I'm understanding, now. Objecting to racist speech is wrong. Does racist speech itself deserve more, or less, condemnation from you? You seem to be much more upset with the anti-racists and very willing to cut the racists lots of breaks (it's ironic, a strawman, etc) I have no authority here, I'm just someone on this board who doesnt want that garbage thought mixed with my gaming. If they come, I'll denounce them. I have no power to make them go away, if they wanted to flood the boards with their hate, they can. I just don't want them to. I don't understand why you want us to be cool with them.
SenorOcho
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People say very dumb things sometimes. That doesn't mean they stop being people, as much as you wish to pretend they are something else. Something you should note is that this is indistinguishable from the bigotry you claim to denounce. You've been gazing too long into the abyss.

And yes, I am more upset with the behavior of "anti-racists", because the people who should be opposing bigotry are shooting themselves in the foot instead, and when called on it threaten to shoot themselves in the groin. Stop shooting yourself, it's unhealthy and helps no one.

Alex
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Gentlemen, your discussion has begun to exceed the bounds of discourse that I'm willing to allow on our RPG forums, because it has strayed into the personal. I would request that you please politely desist. 

On a larger level, I do not claim to have any answers to the deep divide that has shattered American civil society. But as far as these forums go, everyone is welcome to participate in the discussion of ACKS and related topics, regardless of who they are or what they say other places on the internet, provided that on this forum they behave with good will and civility towards the other forumgoers. Thank you.

 

wmarshal
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SenorOcho and DrPete, I think you're both talking past each other to one degree or another.

SenorOcho, I don't think there's anything objectionable to VoxDay giving DrPete the willies. VoxDay gives me the willies, and I consider myself an American nationalist, but in that I mean in the old-fashioned melting-pot way where anybody from anywhere can join us to become an American, and in the way of emphasizing the positive of America, not stressing the negatives of non-Americans. While I'm sympathetic to many of the criticisms of Critical Theory/Intersectionality that many make (including VoxDay), I want no part of what VoxDay proposes as to what America should become. I read his Alt-Right manifesto and it's straight up racist, arguing for each ethnic racial group to have a pure homeland. So when DrPete got concerned by VoxDay's participation I don't blame him. However, DrPete eventually concluded to not boycott the KS, but to stay engaged with the KS, and even started a new effort to counter VoxDay’s efforts. While some have quit the KS in an attempt to force Alex to kick VoxDay from the KS, that's not DrPete.


I do agree that it's better to engage and debate with viewpoints you hate, even loathe. Trying to push viewpoints underground wind up festering and becoming more damaging in my opinion. There's also the problem that once you start trying to force viewpoints underground it often becomes and unending search for targets as more and more viewpoints become unacceptable. The revolution winds up eating its own.

DrPete, in terms of the KS, what racist speech has been said on this board? (I'm sure somewhere on the internet someone is saying something racist in some connection to ACKS, but I can't scan the entire internet.) What racist speech here has been cut slack? The desire to ostracize viewpoints and people associated with them to even the slightest degree taken to ridiculous extents. PETA is currently trying to liken me to a Nazi due to the fact that I drink milk. I don't care if some nazis somewhere also likes milk, that's not going to stop me from drinking it, and to try to associate me with Nazis because of that is disgusting. By that standard a lot is going to get forbidden by polite society. I don't care that some Nazis decided to make milk “their” symbol. Actually, it's not their symbol except for the silly ninnies like PETA that decide to agree with the Nazis that milk is now their symbol. The sane thing is for everyone to realize that the Nazis are being stupid again. I'm not going to let the fact that VoxDay likes ACKS preclude me from also supporting ACKS. I am trusting that Alex is going to keep VoxDay’s contributions appropriate to ACKS and not let it veer off into “hate porn” of some sort. VoxDay is having a villainous class created, so I expect the artwork might depict some evil deeds, but that's what the bad guys do. If proposed artwork depicted actual lefty activists getting murdered I believe Alex has said that would cross a line and he would not allow it as that doesn't fit within ACKS. I don't blame you for being concerned about this, and getting a clarification.


I don't agree entirely with Alex’s position on whom he deals with, but that's his position. He explained why he has it, and I understand why he does even though I don't agree. If this was my platform I wouldn't associate in any with VoxDay or Communists. But we’re talking about Alex’s platform, and I'm not going to start demanding that he let only certain people participate on his platform. I'm also not going to shut down anyone that has concerns (but aren't looking to shut down someone else themselves) regarding some of the people that show up.

Jard
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wmarshall, thanks for an even-handed and thoughtful response!

At the risk of continuing to kick the hornet's nest I will disagree with but a single point you made, but I generally either agree or somewhat agree with everything else: I don't feel that Rhetorical Gamer and whoever is behind veritas deciding to pull their pledges were trying to force Alex to drop VoxDay.

I may be projecting my own biases in what I see, but it seemed to me like they respected people who chose to stay on the kickstarter.  To me, getting to the point of "forcing" would be extolling others to also pull their pledges.  I feel as though they are doing what EVERYONE should feel entitled to do, which is to not spend money on things you don't like and be honest about why you don't like it.  I don't see that as oppression or tyranny or "countering hate with hate".  That's the motherloving Free Market at work.

But yes, thank you for making your point, it's how I feel too.  As I said farther up, I've been here too long to let Vox Day's sudden visibility prevent me from enjoying my hobby.  But I'm also under no obligation to pretend he DOESN'T bother me.  As you said, ethno-nationalism is scary stuff.  It SHOULD be possible to express distaste for things like that in a reasonable way, and with the possible exception of the few posts just before Alex weighed in, I truly believe this board did a good job of that.

Dr Pete
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Wmarshal, as you said, I am uncomfortable with Vox and his comrades. I tried to turn things positive with a counter campaign. This later exchange is me just trying to say that I'm not ashamed of being against stuff like racial intolerance, and I'm not going to apologize for it. Somehow, I'm having to defend that position. Nobody has brought racist rhetoric to the boards. I was just trying to say that I strongly disagree with the logic that intolerance of hatred is worse than hatred. In fact, I feel the opposite, that tolerating hate is bad. This is apparently more controversial than I thought. Alex has asked us to stop, though, so I'm going to try to stop.
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I'm pretty sure that VD would consider me one of the SJWs (If I were remotely important enough for anyone to consider me at all! I think that is not actually the case.)

I'm also pretty sure that the gist of the artwork - sending "minions" after identified SJWs to harm them - is more metaphorical than being wholly fantastic. There's a subtext, here, which is readily apparent to anyone familiar with the history of harassment of real individuals which VD has egged on.

So, this artwork isn't a joke. It's a badge he's giving himself representing the occasions on which he has done harm to real people. 

Viewed in that light, in can't be engaged with apolitically, because it is in itself a barely-coded political statement of his intention to harm his targets through proxies, an activity which he has publicly carried out.

Atlictoatl
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I applaud those speaking outright, but my general nature is one of compartmentalization, so I post under an additional layer of anonymity. There is very little in life that is apolitical, and I resist dirtying my neutral persona here by stepping into the deep muck of the Internet.

I fundamentally disagree with the action taken on both ethical & business standings.

I had not known 'Vox Day' as anything but a minor self-published author until now, and having gone through his blog and other associated research, I would rather have kept my original impression. This is less an issue of 'free speech' than it is 'purchased speech', and this action taken by Autarch sullies their creative output. It doesn't matter that the eventual output will be, to use a term Theodore may approve of, whitewashed, to remove overt political references. The 'speech' portion of his action has already occured, and with the cooperation of and implied approval of Autarch. Theodore may now go back to his feckless band of internet tough guys, point to this product, and say "See? I matter. I can be heard. I deserve attention." This is a distinct difference from other venues that have, correctly, ignored or marginalized his participation. The fact it ss in something so technically minor as a game supplement from a small publisher is irrelevant to his cause. In point of fact, his odious worldviews fully restrict him to such minor efforts as hijacking the Hugos or infesting a Kickstarter - there is no larger market for his type.

At best, this is a distraction. At worst, it risks Autarch becoming embroiled in the same social arguments that burn across the internet daily, and permanently affecting its reputation. It cannot be spun as apolitical - Autarch ceded control of the narrative when the deal was struck, and now must rely on Theodore's restraint and good judgement, what supply there is of it, to emerge a neutral party. One cannot crowd fund a project without the consent of the crowd, and catering to a noxious fringe, only seemingly vociferous due to the structure of the 'Net, is not a well-considered decision. This is far beyond discussion about how much skin our barbarian princesses reveal, or the inherent rights of fictional orcs, and any comparison to that in this matter is myopic at best. Autarch has catered to the views of a person who disagrees with the base genetic makeup of actual living humans, allowing him to purchase (outside the normal interactions of a Kickstarter) a soapbox to stand upon. He does not do this out of the respect he holds for the product, the genre, yourself, or Autarch. The Dark Lord name is one tied strongly to his political activities. This is not an apolitical event. 

I can only assume it was deemed worth the business risk. The 'libertarian free market' response is not additional monies pledged as protest, it is the retraction of pledges, for those who take these things seriously. Money is speech, and backers names will be listed alongside Theodore's, as complicit as he was in the production of the final draft, and implicitly linked in his future efforts at promotion of himself and his ideologies. 

Sadly, there seems no way to independently support Omer's Kanahu.

I'd like you to contrast this with the quantifiable good done as part of ACKS' Bundle Of Holding - thousands of dollars gifted to the United Mitochondrial Disease Foundation - for a sense of my disappointment in Autarch as an entity.


-verita

I'm pretty sure that VD would consider me one of the SJWs (If I were remotely important enough for anyone to consider me at all! I think that is not actually the case.)

I'm also pretty sure that the gist of the artwork - sending "minions" after identified SJWs to harm them - is more metaphorical than being wholly fantastic. There's a subtext, here, which is readily apparent to anyone familiar with the history of harassment of real individuals which VD has egged on.

So, this artwork isn't a joke. It's a badge he's giving himself representing the occasions on which he has done harm to real people. 

Viewed in that light, in can't be engaged with apolitically, because it is in itself a barely-coded political statement of his intention to harm his targets through proxies, an activity which he has publicly carried out.


-The Wyzard
I'd ask people to re-read and re-consider these two posts. While it is fine and well to espouse a philosophy of neutrality or to engage in relatively civilized debate about concepts of free speech, free market, etc. there is something else present in this situation.

Vox Day is more than an 'internet troll'. He is someone who uses the power and influence afforded to him by his internet presence to cause harm to real people, and to incite his followers to do the same. Real harm. Real people. This goes beyond abstract philosophy.

The white nationalist movement is one that uses embedded symbols to signal its tribalism and to reinforce its sense of influence and reach to its members, and the Dark Lord campaign is one that seeks to convert an ACKS supplement into such a symbol-keeper. In doing so, it will align the embedded symbols within the supplement with a deeply disturbing history of oppression, torture, and murder of black people within the United States and racist-motivated violence in other Western European countries. It doesn't matter if the artwork itself is innocuous enough in appearance to not offend people not in the know. The point is that hundreds of people *will* know what the artwork, and even the Dark Lord class, are really saying. It's code, for the converted and for those of us unfortunate to have witnessed this.

I can sympathize that the man behind Vox Day is a longtime contributor and may even be an aquaintance or friend of Alex Macris and Autarch. I do not begrudge Alex his politics or his acquaintances, and I genuinely respect the position you've articulated here, Alex. If Theodore Beale wants to contribute to ACKS development, I cannot begrudge you taking his money, but Vox Day is a racist construct and by allowing Vox Day and his agenda into the ACKS books in the form of content, you are aligning ACKS with some very, very dark and malignant stuff.

IMO, that's a real tragedy, and I hate to see this product that you have worked so hard for be used in this manner by something so virulent. It's truly unfortunate that Vox Day is taking advantage of your personal politics to forward his deeply disturbed agenda.

Anti-racism is not a philosophical stance. It's not that racism is 'bad' and Social Justice Warriors must rail against it because it's politically incorrect. The white nationalist movement is the inheritor of a long, very dark, history of murder, rape, torture, and terrorism. It's a heinous legacy, and our neighbors who are a part of that movement like to hide behind the seeming innocuousness of words and philosophy. 'It's all in good fun' and 'words don't hurt people' are smokescreens.

Please don't let yourself be fooled by such tactics.

Rodriguez
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I dont know Vox besides this rabid (?) puppy business that was going on at the Hugo awards and dont care about him but when he gets accused of actually harming people I would be interested in seeing proof of that. I somehow cant get rid of the feeling that people who dont outright condem Vox Day will soon be painted with the same brush as him.

Dr Pete
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Atlictoatl, thank you. Well said. Rodriguez, take a few minutes, Google gamergate. A coordinated online harassment campaign against... well, real people. Articles talk about death threats, rape threats, swatting, doxxing. In the name of anti-political correctness, i guess (not an expert). A term from that movement, which I guess refers to people who oppose this kind of bad behavior and offensive thought. So this Vox campaign is kind of about him wanoting art symbolizing his role in directing this kind of massive anonymous attack on people.
thirdkingdom
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As a long time player and supporter of ACKS and Autarch I wanted to chime in and say that the association of Vox Day with this Kickstarter -- even though it was initiated by Day himself -- has made me seriously consider whether I want to withdraw my support of it and Autarch in the future.  It would sadden me to do so -- ACKS is my go-to system -- but Vox Day is, I believe, inherently politized.  I think it would have been a different matter if he had posted something to the tune of "check out this Kickstarter some of you might be interested in.  It's a great resource for Swords and Sorcery."  But I think it is pretty obvious that Day used his original blog post to further a harmful political agenda, and not just garner support among his fans for this great game.

sulldawga
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My feelings on the matter are the same as thirdkingdom's above.  I am very uncomfortable being a part of anything even remotely associated with a man like Vox Day.  I have only two remedies: telling Alex how I feel and not spending any money on Alex's products.

It's obvious to me that several people have posted previously about how Vox Day is an avowed racist and Alex's reply appears to me to be "Racism is politics and I don't care about my supporters' politics."  I respect Alex's position that accepting money from racists doesn't equate support of racist positions.  It's just that I disagree with that point of view.  So I'm forced to withdraw my financial support of this Kickstarter.  I really don't want to.  I love the ACKS material and think Alex is a smart and creative guy.  But to me, it would be hypocrisy to come here and complain about Vox and then do nothing else.

I have no illusions about the effect of my actions.  Vox pays hundreds per Kickstarter; I give between $25 and $50.  But sometimes you need to take a stand, even if it's something as relatively inconsequential as a Kickstarter for a game.

SenorOcho
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Rodriguez, take a few minutes, Google gamergate. A coordinated online harassment campaign against... well, real people. Articles talk about death threats, rape threats, swatting, doxxing. In the name of anti-political correctness, i guess (not an expert). A term from that movement, which I guess refers to people who oppose this kind of bad behavior and offensive thought.

-DrPete

You admit to not being an expert, but don't let that stop you from pressing forward with very serious claims about a very large and diverse group of people? This speaks volumes.

Plenty of articles were written.. by the very people that Gamergate had accused of impropriety: http://www.deepfreeze.it/

Amusingly, Vox Day had almost no involvement in Gamergate itself (there was some overlap between GG and the rabid puppies), but I suppose you were quite determined to immediately prove Rodriguez right when it comes to that broad brush painting...

thirdkingdom
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My feelings on the matter are the same as thirdkingdom's above.  I am very uncomfortable being a part of anything even remotely associated with a man like Vox Day.  I have only two remedies: telling Alex how I feel and not spending any money on Alex's products.

It's obvious to me that several people have posted previously about how Vox Day is an avowed racist and Alex's reply appears to me to be "Racism is politics and I don't care about my supporters' politics."  I respect Alex's position that accepting money from racists doesn't equate support of racist positions.  It's just that I disagree with that point of view.  So I'm forced to withdraw my financial support of this Kickstarter.  I really don't want to.  I love the ACKS material and think Alex is a smart and creative guy.  But to me, it would be hypocrisy to come here and complain about Vox and then do nothing else.

I have no illusions about the effect of my actions.  Vox pays hundreds per Kickstarter; I give between $25 and $50.  But sometimes you need to take a stand, even if it's something as relatively inconsequential as a Kickstarter for a game.


-sulldawga

 

For me the difference is Theodore Beale throwing some money at a Kickstarter he likes and telling some friends about it and Vox Day making a politically charged blog post describing images of SJWs being killed and suggesting that his supporters -- many of whom apparently aren't gamers -- give money to it to accomplish his goal.  Like, there's a big difference between someone I disagree with -- let's pick, say Roosh V -- giving money to a Kickstarter that I'm supporting.  Whatever.  But if Roosh V starts blogging about it and suggests everyone over at Red Pill donate to the Kickstarter so that he can suggest the creation of an Alpha class, who have as a class power the automatic ability to seduce and score with any attractive woman they come across, than that's the line where I start to reconsider if it's worth my support.  

Jard
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My feelings on the matter are the same as thirdkingdom's above.  I am very uncomfortable being a part of anything even remotely associated with a man like Vox Day.  I have only two remedies: telling Alex how I feel and not spending any money on Alex's products.

It's obvious to me that several people have posted previously about how Vox Day is an avowed racist and Alex's reply appears to me to be "Racism is politics and I don't care about my supporters' politics."  I respect Alex's position that accepting money from racists doesn't equate support of racist positions.  It's just that I disagree with that point of view.  So I'm forced to withdraw my financial support of this Kickstarter.  I really don't want to.  I love the ACKS material and think Alex is a smart and creative guy.  But to me, it would be hypocrisy to come here and complain about Vox and then do nothing else.

I have no illusions about the effect of my actions.  Vox pays hundreds per Kickstarter; I give between $25 and $50.  But sometimes you need to take a stand, even if it's something as relatively inconsequential as a Kickstarter for a game.

 


-sulldawga

 

 

For me the difference is Theodore Beale throwing some money at a Kickstarter he likes and telling some friends about it and Vox Day making a politically charged blog post describing images of SJWs being killed and suggesting that his supporters -- many of whom apparently aren't gamers -- give money to it to accomplish his goal.  Like, there's a big difference between someone I disagree with -- let's pick, say Roosh V -- giving money to a Kickstarter that I'm supporting.  Whatever.  But if Roosh V starts blogging about it and suggests everyone over at Red Pill donate to the Kickstarter so that he can suggest the creation of an Alpha class, who have as a class power the automatic ability to seduce and score with any attractive woman they come across, than that's the line where I start to reconsider if it's worth my support.  


-thirdkingdom

 

TK, you're like 20 posts late, I already made the "Return of Kings" joke :-P

Ok, that out of the way, a little more serious of a response: If you guys aren't comfortable supporting this kickstarter, I support and respect your decision even if I'm choosing not to withdraw.  What I take umbrage with is Sulldawga's implication that those who complain about Vox (like me) and don't do anything (also me... sort of) might be hypocritical.

as I belabored earlier, I've had to share my hobbies with white nationalists before.  They're in the CK2 boards and the EU4 boards. They probably like game of thrones too.  I'm willing to bed some of them even drive the same cars as me.  I can't live my life keeping track of what they're into and making sure to vocally not buy that stuff anymore.

Now, I _have_ participated in some boycotts before.  When Chik-Fil-A's charitable giving foundation was giving money to politicians who were actually advancing homophobic agendas, I stopped eating there, which was tough because I love me some southern style chicken.  Ultimately I got over it and didn't eat there, but my wife and I discussed it a bit and we realized that, if we ever absolutely had to have a sandwhich, we could calculate how to be "carbon neutral" so to speak.  The money their charitable arm gets cannot possibly be the full 100% of the cost of my sandwich and waffle fries, therefore if I donate an equal amount to the Human Rights Campaign, I will have net done more to advance the causes of equality and tolerance.

Now, where am I going with this? Well, first I would argue we haven't necessarily done "nothing" because we got assurances from Alex that nothing resembling the hypothetical "Alpha" class would be possible.  An evil overlord is an established trope in fantasy literature, and one that can be created without overtly supporting harm.  

That being said, I am open to the idea, if you are, of donating an amount equal to my pledge to a cause that fights racism or helps refugees.  Sulldawga, Thirdkingdom, Wyzard, and Atlicaltl, if you'll pardon my snooping I've deduced that you guys are all part of the same ACKs campaign that seems to take equal parts here and over on big purple, so I am curious what you think.  Do you think it's a fair and appropriate response for those who dislike Vox Day, want to do more than just say so, but who don't wish to cut ties with ACKs, to do a matching pledge to a charitable organization?

Alex
The Autarch
Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

If you have decided to leave the ACKS community because of my affiliations or decisions, I am not going to attempt to dissuade you. Thank you for your past support and best wishes going forward. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

sulldawga
Patreon SupporterPlayer's Companion BackerDwimmermount BackerDomains At War BackerSinister Stone of Sakkara Backer
Joined: 2012-05-17 22:22

I don't want to go too far down the road of my personal feelings about activism and what other people should do.  I think people should do what they think is right.  I could even see someone make a reasonable argument that states they feel as strongly as I do about Vox Day and racism yet don't feel that rescinding their KS pledge is a good idea.  So rest assured my intent was not to label others hypocrites.  

The difficulty I have with Jard's proposal relating to charity donations is that it does nothing about the issue which makes me sad in the first place, which is Vox Day and his followers using the KS as a platform to promote views I find repulsive.  My hope is that my actions convince others to drop their pledges and that in turn convinces Alex to disassociate himself from Vox and his followers. Or, at the very least, it makes Alex less likely to agree to a future deal like the one he made this time around.  

My personal opinion is that making a charitable donation will have less of an effect on Alex's behavior than rescinding a pledge.

I would never tell you not to do it though.  I think it's highly likely that all I'm doing is making myself feel better and that Alex could care less about my pledge.  So who am I to tell you that your donation is a bad idea?  If it makes you feel better about the situation, do it.

I mean, you're taking action to make the world a better place.  If I take the $60 I was going to spend on the KS and spend it on cheeseburgers, then there's a pretty good argument that you're the one accomplishing something good while I'm just massaging my ego.

James C. Bennett
Player's Companion BackerDomains At War BackerSinister Stone of Sakkara BackerLairs And Encounters BackerBarbarian Conquerors of Kanahu BackerACKS Heroic Fantasy Handbook Backer
Joined: 2012-01-17 20:17

It's a badge he's giving himself representing the occasions on which he has done harm to real people. 

A coordinated online harassment campaign

Speech is not harm.* Damaged feelings are not equivalent to damaged bodies or damaged property. People who believe that speech is harm, and attempt to move the law and culture towards accepting that belief, are a threat to free speech. Heaping hate and ridicule on such people--such as by referring to them derogatorily as "social justice warriors" or "snowflakes"--reduces their social status and is therefore a reasonable and effective method of dissuading new members from joining their vile cause.  

Similarly, heaping hate and ridicule on white nationalists--such as by referring to them derogatorily as "racists" or "Nazis"--reduces their social status and is therefore a reasonable and effective method of dissuading new members from joining their vile cause.  

One's views on free speech and one's views on race are completely independent of one another. Therefore, Vox Day can simultaneously be on the side of good and of evil. As can his opponents.

Politically, the racists are currently working to re-implement New Deal era immigration restrictions, which is bad policy. The SJWs, on the other hand, are working to abridge or repeal the First Amendment, which is tyranny. That makes the SJWs the more immediate threat, and VD my dubious ally. Much like the free states turning against the slaves states once the British were no longer a threat, or the U.S. turning against the Soviets after the Nazis were defeated, VD can be dealt with after our mutual enemies have been eliminated.

And that kind of thinking is why I love ACKS.

Seriously, though. I am a libertarian who lived most of my life in L.A. If I wasn't willing to game with people with political beliefs I find offensive, I would never have played at all. Obviously, your calculus could be different. And, if someone decides, for political reasons, to withdraw their support from this Kickstarter, or from Autarch in general, that's their prerogative. Just as it is my prerogative to judge them for their cowardly decision.

* Yes, in some cases, speech can be assault. But those cases generally involve people who are close enough to one another to pose an immediate threat, which is generally not the case on the internet ("Those tweets are coming from inside the house!!!"). In any case, as far as I know, no one was actually harmed or convicted of anything during Gamergate or the Puppies campaigns.

sulldawga
Patreon SupporterPlayer's Companion BackerDwimmermount BackerDomains At War BackerSinister Stone of Sakkara Backer
Joined: 2012-05-17 22:22

If you have decided to leave the ACKS community because of my affiliations or decisions, I am not going to attempt to dissuade you. Thank you for your past support and best wishes going forward. 

-Alex

I don't think I'm leaving the community.  I just think I'm going to limit the amount of money I give to you.

Alex
The Autarch
Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

 

If you have decided to leave the ACKS community because of my affiliations or decisions, I am not going to attempt to dissuade you. Thank you for your past support and best wishes going forward. 


-Alex

 

I don't think I'm leaving the community.  I just think I'm going to limit the amount of money I give to you.


-sulldawga

Frankly I don't know how you can consider yourself a member of this community if you don't plan to support the Chainmail Bikini Bladedancers of Aura 2017 Swimsuit Calendar but to each their own.

 

 

xfrogman5
Barbarian Conquerors of Kanahu ContributorACKS Heroic Fantasy Handbook Contributor
Joined: 2017-03-27 13:54

That being said, I am open to the idea, if you are, of donating an amount equal to my pledge to a cause that fights racism or helps refugees.  Sulldawga, Thirdkingdom, Wyzard, and Atlicaltl, if you'll pardon my snooping I've deduced that you guys are all part of the same ACKs campaign that seems to take equal parts here and over on big purple, so I am curious what you think.  Do you think it's a fair and appropriate response for those who dislike Vox Day, want to do more than just say so, but who don't wish to cut ties with ACKs, to do a matching pledge to a charitable organization?


-Jard

 

If you really want to show Vox Day, I suggest donating to the group most negatively affected by whites, American Indians.

thirdkingdom
Patreon SupporterPlayer's Companion Backer
Joined: 2013-07-07 09:01
I was going to suggest the Billings Public Library.
Rodriguez
Rodriguez's picture
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Joined: 2012-04-05 04:40

Frankly I don't know how you can consider yourself a member of this community if you don't plan to support the Chainmail Bikini Bladedancers of Aura 2017 Swimsuit Calendar but to each their own.


-Alex

 

I'd buy that for a dollar!

Dr Pete
Patreon SupporterAdventurer Conqueror King BackerPlayer's Companion BackerDomains At War ContributorLairs And Encounters BackerBarbarian Conquerors of Kanahu ContributorACKS Heroic Fantasy Handbook Contributor
Joined: 2011-07-13 13:22
I was going to suggest the Billings Public Library.

-thirdkingdom
Does the bck book need sexy dinosaurs, too?
Alex
The Autarch
Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

I was going to suggest the Billings Public Library.


-thirdkingdom

Does the bck book need sexy dinosaurs, too?


-DrPete

Those are in the 2018 Swimsuit Calendar

 

thirdkingdom
Patreon SupporterPlayer's Companion Backer
Joined: 2013-07-07 09:01
That's actually the perfect way to counter Vox Day; get Chuck Tingle to write up a class. Handsome bad boy T-rex (with cute abs).
Jard
Patreon SupporterDomains At War ContributorSinister Stone of Sakkara ContributorLairs And Encounters ContributorBarbarian Conquerors of Kanahu ContributorACKS Heroic Fantasy Handbook Contributor
Joined: 2012-07-11 23:23

(See Edit Below)

If you really want to show Vox Day, I suggest donating to the group most negatively affected by whites, American Indians.

-xfrogman5

I don't particular want to show anyone.  I didn't even know who Vox Day was until a few weeks ago.  I wish I could go back to those days, before my hobby and these forums had become the latest battleground.  Also, not to be rude, but you appear to have been on these forums for approximately 1 week and haven't posted anywhere but here, and google had precious few results for xfrogman5, one of which included the comment about "the advice Vox gives", so I am not sure I want to engage with you further.

I was going to suggest the Billings Public Library.

-thirdkingdom

Noting my above statement that I don't want to "show" anybody, is there something I should know about the Billings Public Library?  Are they famous for anti-racist outreach programs or something? Or is that just where Vox Day is from?

I appreciate you responding to me with suggestions, and want to re-iterate I respect your decision to not back something you're uncomfortable with. I am somewhat disappointed that another member of your game, sulldawga, seems more interested in twisting Alex's arm, which I believe will succeed only in breaking Alex's arm (if anything) and do nothing to stop or slow Vox Day's activities.  I'd like to try to find a way to show, in good faith, that while I don't wish to withdraw my pledge, I do not support racism or white nationalism in any form.  If you think the Billings Library is a good choice, I'd be happy to hear you out.


EDIT: aw CRAP! things got SILLY while I was typing my serious response.... uhhhh.... think fast....  WUBBA LUBBA DUB DUB!

thirdkingdom
Patreon SupporterPlayer's Companion Backer
Joined: 2013-07-07 09:01

So, Vox Day really hit the "public" eye by spearheading a group of sci-fi fantasy authors and, critics, I guess, who were opposed to the increased diversity in the Hugo awards (see Rabid Puppies and Sad Puppies).  Last year their slate of nominees included serious authors along with some "joke" entries, one of whom was bizarre erotica author r. Chuck Tingle, author of classics such as Pounded in the Butt by my own Butt.  Being the brilliant man that he is, Tingle started to troll the Puppies and Vox Day in particular.  You can read about it here: https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/chuck-tingle-trolling-hugo-zoe-quinn-ge...

 

Anyway, at some point Tingle noticed that the domain name therabidpuppies.com was unclaimed, so he went ahead and purchased it and set up his own website, which is still up.  I made the Billings Public Library comment because it is one of the groups that Dr. Tingle always suggests one should make donations to.

EDIT: and I just saw this website, too: stixhiscock.com

EDIT EDIT: here's an article explaining what is up with the above link: http://io9.gizmodo.com/amazon-pulls-castalia-house-book-for-ripping-off-...

5 Stone Games
Joined: 2017-04-06 17:08

First an apology for not being able to support this excellent kickstarter. My finances are all claimed, even the $10 level. Maybe the  Chainmail Bikini Bladedancers of Aura 2017 Swimsuit Calendar next time eh? ;) 

Second, anyone interested in heroic fantasy , the OSR or the like better  get used to running into  Right Wingers, Reactionaires, .Alt Right  and all kinds of groups like that. Its a very popular hobby among that set. Especially OSR games.

Third, giving money to native American  won't make  make Vox Day happy. He is a Native American  himself and a registered member of a tribe, not sure which one  He's also cordial with Chuck Tingle as the Rabid Puppies got Mr. Tingle a Hugo nomination. The  best thing you can do with your money is to put it to the kickstarted here for the Chosen One and add a little "Blue Rose" style to the mix. 

Fourth  this community really isn't big enough yet to have internal disputes without inadvertently harming allies.  May I consder taking the Libertarian approach to the problem, just worry about a good product . saying I won't fund this because that meany Vox Day says bad thing when you planned to do originally  nothing to harm the .Alt Rught whose primary motto is We Don't Care, Its does hurt friends here and its hurts trust. Honeslty Alex knows how to navigate the waters, put politics aside and trust him to handle the requests in the right way. He's never failed before. 

Fifth and last. I get no say I sure hope somebody incudes a level based defense adjstment to make up for assumed magic item. Its probably the only thing I have yet to see in OSR game done right and its fits heroic fantasy to a T, Conan isn't harder to hit because of his +1 shield but because of his skills, that kind of thing. 

xfrogman5
Barbarian Conquerors of Kanahu ContributorACKS Heroic Fantasy Handbook Contributor
Joined: 2017-03-27 13:54

Third, giving money to native American  won't make  make Vox Day happy. He is a Native American  himself and a registered member of a tribe, not sure which one


-5 Stone Games

Surely this can't be true!  How can he be a white supremacist and a Native American. 

bestial warlust
Barbarian Conquerors of Kanahu BackerACKS Heroic Fantasy Handbook Backer
Joined: 2017-04-04 08:15

Second, anyone interested in heroic fantasy , the OSR or the like better  get used to running into  Right Wingers, Reactionaires, .Alt Right  and all kinds of groups like that. Its a very popular hobby among that set. Especially OSR games.


-5 Stone Games

I was going avoid posting on this thread as it can easily become a powder keg but this is an untrue generalization. 

5 Stone Games
Joined: 2017-04-06 17:08

This isn't a Vox day thread. I don't want give the man any more free rent here however he he isn't a White Supremacists , he's a Western Christian Civilizationsist and a  Nationalist 

In his own words 

  1. The Alt Right believes Western civilization is the pinnacle of human achievement and supports its three foundational pillars: Christianity, the European nations, and the Graeco-Roman legacy.

and 

  1. The Alt Right is openly and avowedly nationalist. It supports all nationalisms and the right of all nations to exist, homogeneous and unadulterated by foreign invasion and immigration.

Note all nations, Native American, Western, African (he is a staunch anti colonialist) Asian 

Simply, everybody gets to live in their own lands by their own customs without foreigners around including Eurpean  people, Asian People, African people, everybody 

His own views in race and heredity and egalitarianism are what gets him branded as a White Nationalist by his detractors . If you really care about it  go to his blog . I won't post the link though. Its not germane.

Also bestial warlust missed my point. It wasn't about the OSR but about the more narrow subset of the hobby focused on heroic fantasy and yes very Conservative people and reactionaires play such games and tend to like the assciated literature   .  The .Alt Right and Neo reaction  are packed with D&D people Its has jack to do with the hobby itself who writes it or anything else only the taste of those people. They are going to be  at the table  sometimes 

In fact it may shock some peopel to know that both the founders of the hobby Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson were lifelong devout Christians . They didn't put it in the game because when it was made (70's early 80's) it wasn't a thing or necessary .The hobby being politicized like everything else is pretty new , probably  around  10 years old or so. If yu aren't comfy with certain views you can always boot the player (I've been booted as bad fit a few times), not allow the player (I've done that with someone with a very unsavory reputation)  or pass table rules banning put of context political talk. I've loosely done  the later  in recent years when things  get out of hand too. 

Its unfortunate that our little hobby has gotten this way but everything is political now and hopefully level heads will prevail and we can go back to tossing some dice. Now drop and give me a D20

 

 

 

 

GMJoe
Barbarian Conquerors of Kanahu BackerACKS Heroic Fantasy Handbook Backer
Joined: 2013-01-04 12:56

I hate to say this, but I think the discussion in this thread is no longer productive, and it's starting to dip into the uncivil. Perhaps this would be a good time to acknowledge that further attempts at persuading each other to change our beliefs are unlikely to succeed in this venue, and move on?

That said, I'm being presumptious. If I'm misreading the situation, please accept my apology.

Alex
The Autarch
Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

I hate to say this, but I think the discussion in this thread is no longer productive, and it's starting to dip into the uncivil. Perhaps this would be a good time to acknowledge that further attempts at persuading each other to change our beliefs are unlikely to succeed in this venue, and move on?

That said, I'm being presumptious. If I'm misreading the situation, please accept my apology.


-GMJoe

I personally agree with you; but I'm also content to allow people to chat here if they can remain civil whilst doing so. 

If nothing else, we have tested D&D's alignment system in real-world conditions.

  • True Neutral characters will consort with characters of any alignment.
  • Neutral Good characters will preferably consort with Good characters, consort with Neutral characters, and never consort with Evil characters.
  • Lawful Good characters will never consort with Evil characters, nor will they consort with Neutral characters who consort with Chaotic and Evil characters, but will tolerate Neutral characters who agree not to consort with Chaotic and Evil characters, and prefer to consort with Lawful and Good characters.
  • Chaotic Neutral characters will consort with Chuck Tingle.

 

 

chalicier
Patreon SupporterBarbarian Conquerors of Kanahu BackerACKS Heroic Fantasy Handbook Backer
Joined: 2017-01-14 00:36

  • Chaotic Neutral characters will consort with Chuck Tingle.


-Alex

"Hammered In The Ass By A Complex Simulation Of Antiquity-Era Economics And Social Structures In A Fantasy Mileu With Rules Strongly Based On Original Basic/Expert D&D Plus A Variety Of Optional Extensions Used To Bring Them Up To Date With Modern Gaming Trends While Still Maintaining That Distinct Old-School Feel In Play"

Alex
The Autarch
Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

 

 

  • Chaotic Neutral characters will consort with Chuck Tingle.

 


-Alex

 

"Hammered In The Ass By A Complex Simulation Of Antiquity-Era Economics And Social Structures In A Fantasy Mileu With Rules Strongly Based On Original Basic/Expert D&D Plus A Variety Of Optional Extensions Used To Bring Them Up To Date With Modern Gaming Trends While Still Maintaining That Distinct Old-School Feel In Play"


-chalicier

Sounds like Chuck Tingle's next Hugo-nominated bestseller to me!

sulldawga
Patreon SupporterPlayer's Companion BackerDwimmermount BackerDomains At War BackerSinister Stone of Sakkara Backer
Joined: 2012-05-17 22:22

Frankly I don't know how you can consider yourself a member of this community if you don't plan to support the Chainmail Bikini Bladedancers of Aura 2017 Swimsuit Calendar but to each their own.

-Alex

That might loosen the pursestrings a bit...  I mean, the Dark Lord can't screw that one up, too, can he?

ZeroSum
ZeroSum's picture
Patreon SupporterLairs And Encounters BackerBarbarian Conquerors of Kanahu BackerACKS Heroic Fantasy Handbook Backer
Joined: 2016-06-12 23:52

 

That might loosen the pursestrings a bit...  I mean, the Dark Lord can't screw that one up, too, can he?


-sulldawga

We could always have him cowed beneath a scantily clad Bladedancer's bootheel, his evil beastman minions comedicaly skedaddling away in the background. It would fit right in between the beach volleyball and pillow fight photoshoots.

jedavis
Patreon SupporterPlayer's Companion BackerDomains At War BackerSinister Stone of Sakkara Backer
Joined: 2012-03-08 01:21

If nothing else, we have tested D&D's alignment system in real-world conditions.

  • True Neutral characters will consort with characters of any alignment.
  • Neutral Good characters will preferably consort with Good characters, consort with Neutral characters, and never consort with Evil characters.
  • Lawful Good characters will never consort with Evil characters, nor will they consort with Neutral characters who consort with Chaotic and Evil characters, but will tolerate Neutral characters who agree not to consort with Chaotic and Evil characters, and prefer to consort with Lawful and Good characters.
  • Chaotic Neutral characters will consort with Chuck Tingle.


-

Evil, of course, lurks.

Alex
The Autarch
Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

 

 

If nothing else, we have tested D&D's alignment system in real-world conditions.

  • True Neutral characters will consort with characters of any alignment.
  • Neutral Good characters will preferably consort with Good characters, consort with Neutral characters, and never consort with Evil characters.
  • Lawful Good characters will never consort with Evil characters, nor will they consort with Neutral characters who consort with Chaotic and Evil characters, but will tolerate Neutral characters who agree not to consort with Chaotic and Evil characters, and prefer to consort with Lawful and Good characters.
  • Chaotic Neutral characters will consort with Chuck Tingle.

 


-

 

Evil, of course, lurks.


-jedavis

Amazing forum pun. I bow to your greatness.

Alex
The Autarch
Joined: 2011-06-30 18:10

 

 

 

That might loosen the pursestrings a bit...  I mean, the Dark Lord can't screw that one up, too, can he?

 


-sulldawga

 

We could always have him cowed beneath a scantily clad Bladedancer's bootheel, his evil beastman minions comedicaly skedaddling away in the background. It would fit right in between the beach volleyball and pillow fight photoshoots.


-ZeroSum

Listen, there's a reason there's lightly-clad bladedancers worshipping the goddess of love and war in ACKS, and that reason is called Frazetta Covers

 

 

Atlictoatl
Sinister Stone of Sakkara BackerLairs And Encounters BackerBarbarian Conquerors of Kanahu BackerACKS Heroic Fantasy Handbook Backer
Joined: 2014-11-30 02:44

That being said, I am open to the idea, if you are, of donating an amount equal to my pledge to a cause that fights racism or helps refugees.  Sulldawga, Thirdkingdom, Wyzard, and Atlicaltl, if you'll pardon my snooping I've deduced that you guys are all part of the same ACKs campaign that seems to take equal parts here and over on big purple, so I am curious what you think.  Do you think it's a fair and appropriate response for those who dislike Vox Day, want to do more than just say so, but who don't wish to cut ties with ACKs, to do a matching pledge to a charitable organization?


-Jard
I'm not cutting ties with ACKS. I'm still in on the KS, and just subscribed to the Patreon yesterday. I don't want to live in a world where Vox Day denies *me* access to a product that I really like, and like I said I understand, respect, and sympathize with Alex's comments here. That he doesn't believe in financial boycotts of things to leverage change is also a factor; while he's stated he'll respect those patrons who choose to do so, he will not allow such actions to sway his decision-making. He's done a reasonably good job, I think, explaining the history of that and how it falls on multiple sides of the political spectrum.

Still, I've made my case for why I think ACKS and Alex are being used by the racist construct Vox Day and encourage Alex to reconsider whether he wants to be used that way. It's going to be a souring of the KS product to have the Dark Lord and his Vile Faceless Misions repesented within it. IMO, it stains the product in a sad way.

If Alex comes to agree with me as a result of me and others speaking up about it, then I'll have done my work. If he doesn't, he and I can disagree about it. For now, I'm still buying the product. We'll see how I feel when I'm actually holding it in my hands and looking at what I see as Vox Day's corrupting infiltration.

~*~

Rodriguez, I gave a quick answer to your query about Vox Day's harm to others in post #119 above, which got caught up in moderation because of the links. And then I had difficulty posting to the forums, so I was unable to edit out some light snark from the late hour. My apologies for that.

That glitch also delayed the response I just made. Apologies for seemingly disappearing from the conversation.

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