Really? Really?!?

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Rodriguez
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Rodriguez, I gave a quick answer to your query about Vox Day's harm to others in post #119 above, which got caught up in moderation because of the links. And then I had difficulty posting to the forums, so I was unable to edit out some light snark from the late hour. My apologies for that.

That glitch also delayed the response I just made. Apologies for seemingly disappearing from the conversation.


-Atlictoatl

 

Ah, no problem!

The snarky bits didnt bother me but you make it sound somehow as if it was my responsible to research him when I doubt accusations and I certainly would disagree with that.

I agree that doxxing is a really shitty thing to do, even if she faked the review I dont think its in any way an appropriate response. If that counts as actual harm is pretty debatable though. In the worst case I could see it as a part of "inciting violence" if he also urges his fans to deal with her. 

About the "feeling of impending harrassment": Thats probably a misunderstanding. I dont think that me or anybody else will get harassed on this forum because of their stance towards Vox Day but I think that when the emotions here boil up even more and the words describing Vox Day get stronger and stronger then people who disagree run a high risk of getting labled as various unpleasant things.

Its just something I have seen online quite a few times. If it doesnt happen in here, all the better! :)

Atlictoatl
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The snarky bits didnt bother me but you make it sound somehow as if it was my responsible to research him when I doubt accusations and I certainly would disagree with that.

-Rodriguez
In my fatigue that night, I may have suggested that more than I meant to. My greater point was that it didn't take more than five minutes (meaning, if that was so easy, there's a high probability of more, and potentially worse, stuff were I or anyone else to want to spend the time digging for it) for me to find evidence of him crowing about doxxing someone in front of hundreds of followers for something as insignificant as posting a bad review of him on Amazon. His spurious attempts to disclaim responsibility for his actions ("I didn't invent the rules of the game") fail to justify the fact that he doxxed someone in front of his fanbase.

There is no reason to doxx somebody other than to incite one's community (followers, in this case) to use that information to harass the person. Doxxing serves no other purpose, except perhaps to threaten someone into shutting up and backing off, because you can inflict a world of hurt on them.

Doxxing is serious shit, and people who do it in a serious way severely fuck people's lives up for weeks, months, or years. It comes with a healthy dose of emotional damage that can be hard to recover from. I don't have any proof of how malicious this specific doxxing activity was on Vox Day's part, but the fact that he's so callously blase about it implies that he's used to doing this or worse with some regularity. 

He's not remotely a good person.

I agree that doxxing is a really shitty thing to do, even if she faked the review I dont think its in any way an appropriate response. If that counts as actual harm is pretty debatable though. In the worst case I could see it as a part of "inciting violence" if he also urges his fans to deal with her.

-
It really isn't, though. Doxxing leads directly to harassment, which can be very damaging and which the victim has no way of stopping if it persists short of completely uprooting their lives (if that). There are victims of extreme doxxing and harrassment campaigns who have to deal with that shit years and years after the initial conflagration. It's the harassment / bullying that never stops, with some communities. 

We currently live in a moment in time when police and the courts don't quite know how to deal with doxxing. In this time, we need to exercise even more outrage against people who use doxxing as a means of controlling and threatening people they disagree with, because the system of redress victims can typically rely on is ineffectual until the legal system catches up.

SenorOcho
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for something as insignificant as posting a bad review of him on Amazon.

-Atlictoatl
While I disagree with doxxing for the vast majority of cases, it should be pointed out that this wasn't insignificant, as there have been coordinated fake review bombings (literally a form of online harassment campaign). Anne Rice in particular recently called this behavior out, resulting in waves of death threats sent her way from supposed "progressives"...
Dr Pete
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It's kind of amazing that this thread hasn't attracted more trolls, isn't it?

I love this community, btw.

Antiquities
Joined: 2013-07-05 19:55

It's kind of amazing that this thread hasn't attracted more trolls, isn't it? I love this community, btw.

-DrPete

 

Frankly, I'm just glad all the discussion of the Dark Lord hasn't devolved to "The Dark? Lord..."

Rodriguez
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It really isn't, though. Doxxing leads directly to harassment, which can be very damaging and which the victim has no way of stopping if it persists short of completely uprooting their lives (if that). There are victims of extreme doxxing and harrassment campaigns who have to deal with that shit years and years after the initial conflagration. It's the harassment / bullying that never stops, with some communities. 

It can lead to harassment but the people who do the actual harassment are the ones doing the harm then. 

 

We currently live in a moment in time when police and the courts don't quite know how to deal with doxxing. In this time, we need to exercise even more outrage against people who use doxxing as a means of controlling and threatening people they disagree with, because the system of redress victims can typically rely on is ineffectual until the legal system catches up.

I vehemently disagree! 

Its never the right time to create outrage and form some internet vigilante mob just because the legal system does not currently agree if something is a crime or not. 

 

Aryxymaraki
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Its never the right time to create outrage and form some internet vigilante mob just because the legal system does not currently agree if something is a crime or not. 


-Rodriguez

Sounds like doxxing to me. I agree, it's never the right time for that.

bestial warlust
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It's kind of amazing that this thread hasn't attracted more trolls, isn't it? I love this community, btw.

-DrPete

You shouldn't have said that .......

 

ZeroSum
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Pff, you call that a troll...

Antiquities
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Pff, you call that a troll...


-ZeroSum

I wonder what would have happened if none of the original D&D guys had read Three Hearts and Three Lions, since that's where that troll came from.

ZeroSum
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I wonder what would have happened if none of the original D&D guys had read Three Hearts and Three Lions, since that's where that troll came from.


-The Dark

Probably a more Tolkieny troll, if any.

sulldawga
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I vehemently disagree! 

Its never the right time to create outrage and form some internet vigilante mob just because the legal system does not currently agree if something is a crime or not. 


-Rodriguez

There's a difference between expressing outrage at morally reprehensible behavior and "form[ing] some internet vigilante mob".  

Although rest assured when I tell people the story of this Kickstarter, I will not mention how I tried to ignite a boycott and ended up being the only person to cancel my pledge.  I will be the glorious leader of an vigilante mob fighting for truth and justice in the dark corners of the internet where a bunch of older white dudes nerd out about the demographics of imaginary ACKS kingdoms.

Rodriguez
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There's a difference between expressing outrage at morally reprehensible behavior and "form[ing] some internet vigilante mob".  


-sulldawga

So that outrage will only take the form of angry posts on social media?

No further activism? 

Aryxymaraki
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Although rest assured when I tell people the story of this Kickstarter, I will not mention how I tried to ignite a boycott and ended up being the only person to cancel my pledge.  I will be the glorious leader of an vigilante mob fighting for truth and justice in the dark corners of the internet where a bunch of older white dudes nerd out about the demographics of imaginary D&D kingdoms.


-sulldawga

As RPG players, it is our right; nay, our sacred duty; when telling stories of the Old Days, to alter them to make ourselves sound better.

Alex
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 I will be the glorious leader of an vigilante mob fighting for truth and justice in the dark corners of the internet where a bunch of older white dudes nerd out about the demographics of imaginary D&D kingdoms.

That's not a nice thing to say. It's ACKS kingdoms, not D&D kingdoms. 

 

 

 

 

cbwjm
Joined: 2017-01-11 22:48

I don't really know much about this vox day character other than skimming through a quick internet search, however, this thread did make me back the kickstarter. I enjoy reading through the ideas in ACKs (haven't much chance to run it, sadly) and am looking forward to adding these new books to my digital collection.

sulldawga
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So that outrage will only take the form of angry posts on social media?

No further activism? 


-Rodriguez

I withdrew my pledge.  I'm honestly not sure what the next step would be.  I am open to suggestions.

sulldawga
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That's not a nice thing to say. It's ACKS kingdoms, not D&D kingdoms.

-Alex

You're the last person I'd expect to take umbrage over someone saying not nice things.  But you expressed your opposition politely so how could I not edit my post?  

Alex
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LOL, thanks sulldawga! I was being facetious but it cracks me up that you played along.

 

Dr Pete
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There's a difference between expressing outrage at morally reprehensible behavior and "form[ing] some internet vigilante mob".  


-sulldawga

So that outrage will only take the form of angry posts on social media?

No further activism? 


-Rodriguez
I dunno if it matters, but I would gleefully assist law enforcement in identifying anyone involved in a doxxing harassment attack or a swatting. This conversation makes me feel like there's something wrong with that.
2097
Joined: 2012-09-23 13:25

Alex, you've always gone above and beyond the call of duty to help me and I appreciate that.

So I hope you'll permit me to respectfully and politely say that I disagree with this decision and will not be getting this new setting. Not because of reasons of economic boycott in order to effect some sort of cause, but because this inclusion makes the product less appealing to me. SJWs say a lot of stupid shit (Sturgeon's Law is not enough, it's more like 1% good things) but at the end of the day I'm probably about 100000 times closer to them than to anti-SJWs. Doesn't mean I want to join either camp, but my little hut in the wilderness is a lot closer to SJW-land than the other side. I'm definitely not about to get onboard with Vox Day (or Brandon Morse, or Gamergate for that matter).

I hope this was an OK thing to write. You know I appreciate you and all your knowledge on how to play roleplaying games correctly. I hope we can remain on good terms.

Alex
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Thanks for the kind words, 2097. You must, of course, follow your conscience. I don't hold ill will towards anyone for doing that.

 

2097
Joined: 2012-09-23 13:25

That was a reply I sincerely appreciated. Thanks.

Taarkoth
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To the people complaining about Vox 'doxxing' people, it would be honest to acknowledge the SJW List only targets people who have, themselves, engaged in or openly called for the doxxing and disemployement of people found guilty of badthink. Don't like the gander sauce? Stop cooking that goose.
Dr Pete
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I din't really know about that. Fascinating. I wonder what that list is for. Meanwhile, during this very kickstarter... https://nightwind777.blogspot.com/2017/03/vox-day-gets-caught-in-his-own...
Atlictoatl
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To the people complaining about Vox 'doxxing' people, it would be honest to acknowledge the SJW List only targets people who have, themselves, engaged in or openly called for the doxxing and disemployement of people found guilty of badthink. Don't like the gander sauce? Stop cooking that goose.

-Taarkoth
You've missed the point entirely. VD is doxxing people who give him negative reviews on Amazon. This isn't some justified attack based on an ideological war surrounding GamerGate. While I don't believe your assertion above (any evidence of that? or is that just what's shared on suspect forums? Having been the victims of doxxing, I highly doubt that many of the people on the SJW List are in favor of doxxing as a practice), it doesn't matter in this instance. People leaving negative reviews on Amazon are not giving their ideological permission to be doxxed.

From one of the Comments on the blog post cited below your post. I don't have evidence this comment is factual, but it certainly matches a pattern of reported behavior:

Vox is especially insidious and cowardly, because he just kind of puts a cyber hit out on people and then leaves his anonymous minions to do the dirty work for him. So VD really has no idea what kind of psycho he has gone and radicalized, nor does he really care. It gives him cover, a kind of plausible deniability. He never actually got his own hands dirty so it's not his problem. That also leaves his dread ilk or his minions or whatever, holding the bag. So they hero worship VD and then he exploits them, uses them as pawns in his power tripping games. They trip over themselves trying to please him.

I'm always concerned because VD has no real idea who his minions are, who is idolizing him and acting on his behalf. One of these days he just might appeal to some guy who is mentally and morally unstable and the end result is going to be something much more tragic then the silly pizza gate shooter.


-

On one level, this does make for a fascinating character study that could be translated into a character class in a fantasy role-playing game. On the other, including it not as satire or exploitative of a fucked-up individual and his cronies, but rather at the fui's request, glorifies the behavior and gives them a calling-card. 

It's pretty fucked-up. I'm still in on the KS campaign, because I'm not going to let VD ruin my access to new ACKS material, but I'm very curious to find out if I can stomach the inclusion in the product.

I remain concerned that Autarch is letting this dude use their IP for his garbage. 

sulldawga
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LOL, thanks sulldawga! I was being facetious but it cracks me up that you played along.

-Alex

It's all part of my nefarious plan to be nice to you until you come around to my way of thinking.

5 Stone Games
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1st despite the furor , it looks like nasty hobitsses will be in the book. This makes me very happy although were I a backer (I couldn't make it)  I'd be pushing for an herbalist/hedge wizard as well. 

Atlictoatl you should take some time to read the reviews  befoire you judge . The ones that caught so much ire  were fake negative reviews used to manipulate Amazon numbers for political purposes. And note Day is a publisher (Castallia House a leading pulp publisher)  and there  are times and places fake reviews to sabotage a business can be grounds for suit 
 
 
Amazon being the plaintiff here. 

Real reviews by people who had read the book or at least enough of it to judge even if negative were welcomed.

This problem effects everyone including Hollywood in this case over the Armenian genocide (Turkish brigading basically) 

 http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hollywood-is-losing-battle-online-...

and of course fake review blackmail on Yelp and elsewher . Its a huge problem and all the lies and manipulation are why we can't have nice things.

Also Vox Day and the rest of the US .alt right are not boogymen but are transparently easy to understand, they are Paleo-Conservatives like Pat Buchanan radicalized with Allinskite tactics. Thety only seem Right wing because the polite public culture is pushed left. Hell Trump , scary guy #1 is probably more liberal than Bill Clinton was 

Why this situation is uncomfortable is that the Right in the US always played by a failure is fine so long as we stick to our principles. "Beatiful Losers" as Sam Francis put it, The .Alt Right isn't like that  They play by the same rules the Left does.  Allinsky you magnificent bastard I read your book etc etc 

That is scary since its new but its easy to stop, don't play dirty and the other guy won't play dirty since the others guys prefer not to anyway. 

 :re Doxxing, its not nice and it can be illegal but As Matt Assay noted here 

 
You don't have privacy or security. The instant bandwidth became cheap and plentiful, privacy was over , done and gone. 
 
This sucks so much especailly for those of us from the before the Internet times (Late Antideluvian era, after the fall of Mu)  but baring regulation no one supports like a a total ban on data transfers faster than say 56k for everyone except a few national security reasons nothing can be done.  The technological convergence of the cameras, the Internet and other forms of networking are creating a brave new society 
 
Its not the time and place to discuss it but there isn't much anyone can do except call a cease fire and hope people stick to it, 
 
Now as for your concerns, you need to trust the Autarch, he knows how to give people what they want and in context of the genre. So relax. The Dark Lord will be cool , the V.FM.'w will be fun and the SJW's will be in genre and in good fun too. 
 

 

 

CharlesDM
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Browsing the last page or so of this thread, I see very little that I would describe as a "General Discussion" of ACKS. If our community has grown large enough to sustain ongoing discussion of real life issues, that may be good, but honestly, the Internet is filled with that.

Perhaps I should simply ignore this thread, but I hope some of this energy can be channeled into an engaging discussion of ACKS: rules, play, in short, FUN stuff!

Rodriguez
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Yes, lets let this thread die in piece already now that the Kickstarter is over...

moorcrys
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Thirded.

Jard
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I've been avoiding commenting on this thread (until now) in favor of trying to push more game-content related topics in both my responses and new posts I make.  I encourage everyone bored with this thread to do the same and let those who still have something to say get it off their chest.

2097
Joined: 2012-09-23 13:25

:re Doxxing, its not nice and it can be illegal but As Matt Assay noted here 

 
You don't have privacy or security. The instant bandwidth became cheap and plentiful, privacy was over , done and gone.

-5 Stone Games
Naw. That would be like saying that once guns and masks were invented, life was over. Yet some humans are still alive. Perhaps it's only a matter of time, but it's a gradual process.
 
Doxxing might be hard to prevent or even impossible to prevent but we can still try. We can still choose our friends and we can still choose how we behave. We don't have to trample over ourselves in a rush to the bottom.
 
I don't want to join the debate but I don't want to stand by justifying doxxing either. From either side.
Peace and love, out.

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