Alchemy proficiency and alchemists

General ACKS Forums House Rules
1

The recent post on potions brought up something I had looked at before.  The rules on alchemy and potion creation make it difficult for a poor alchemist to sucesfully create enough potions to make a living. 

Say I have a  master alchemist with a +1 INT and a formula tries to make a 1st level potion (say a healing potion).  The target number for the magical research throw is 12+ (12 - 1 (for level) +1 (INT) = 12).  The alchemist will only succeed 45% of the time.  If you double the cost and time for an alchemist (even if following a formula), in a year they will have invested 13,000 GP to get 26 rolls (not including the costs of any  special components).  Lets just assume that the costs of the special components is 250 gp per potion.  That increases to total costs to 19,500 GP.  With a 45% success rate and a sale price of 1000 gp, that only results in 11,700 GP in sales for a total annual loss of 7,800 GP for an initial 4000GP investment for a lab.  

I have house ruled that a PC  (or NPC alchemist) can add +2 for each level of alchemy to their magic research roll (especially since Magical Engineering is not a general proficiency). That would allow an alchemist to reduce the chance of failure to a point where they can make a reasonable living (assuming they can get special components). 

That would increase the success rate of the alchemist in the example above to 75%.  That would result in at least an alchemist breaking even.  If they had a lab worth 14,000, or +2 INT they would earn a 1,300 gp annual profit.  

Now you could read the rules to say that the doubling of the cost and time for an alchemist only applies to researching new potions and not creating potions from an existing formula.   You could also rule that certain potions have common forumlas requiring easily obtainible (and cheaper) special components.  

It wouldn't overshadow magical engineering (especially in my Dwimmermount campaign due to the value of Magical Edngineering in the dungeon).  I have also house ruled that certain potions are more common and 1/2 suggested price (500 gp per level) (e.g healing, oil of sharpness, heroism, climbing).  

Has anyone else house ruled anything similiar?

 

2

:)

I'm starting to think it's an ACKS right of passage for folks to go back to the Alchemy proficiency and go 'wait a minute....'

6+ is the key MRT to break even on sales cost vs. cost to create, taking into account expected failures. Getting there via inherent bonus, INT, Magical Engineering, laboratory value, etc. is however you'd like best to do it.

3

I don't know if you're in the heroic fantasy kickstarter, but in that alchemy has been modified so that ranks in it are added to your magic research throw to make potions, and it stacks with magical engineering.

Another fun thing added is that a level 5 spellcaster with 3 ranks in alchemy can craft potions at half the normal cost and time (which reduces to 1/4 when you also factor in a formula).  I have a Nobiran Wonderworker in my campaign with 3 ranks in alchemy and 1 in magical engineering, and i've promised to report back to Alex if this ends up shattering the potion economy!

4

Interesting. I missed the part with the extra halving from 3 ranks.

I think it'd be too much work to mess up the potion economy.

In the extreme case, then, potions would cost 125gp+125sc and take .25 weeks per level.

At the maximum success rate of 85% (natural rolls of 3 or less always failing) we expect the spellcaster to spend 147gp+147sc and 0.29 weeks for a 1st level potion, or 294gp and 2 days. At a sales price of 1000gp, that's about 700gp of profit, but at that level of skill it's unlikely you're getting any magical research XP out of the task.

Given 30 days of work, that produces 15 potions selling for 10,500gp, but requiring 2,205 in base cost and 2,205gp in special component cost.

To sell that many a month, that's at least multiple Class I cities (7 per month) or a multitude of Is, IIs, and IIIs, so it's at best delayed and risky profit.

On top of that, if we attempt to source special components from the Class I market, at best it's a 1.5% chance that a given merchant might have some number of loads, averaging out to maybe 3.645 loads that still has to be the right monster. Odds of the right monster *type* is only ~10% per type (Humanoid, Dragon, Undead, Unusual...) with any given monster being about a 1.6% chance on the average, given the generic tables and culling some repeated types. Even if you made monster parts 4 times more available (inverse of the quartering of potion creating time) you're still looking at a ~6% chance of ~14 loads per month.

I've been kinda rolling around the postulate that it's the special component requirement, more than cost, time or success rates, that really drive the rarity. The Judge would have to allow that part to be broken before much else would go wrong. The 'maximized' normal market availability in a Class I is about 131 loads per month, which at least gets you to the point where one or more loads (at only 300gp/per) is the monster you need, so even in that extreme case you're only getting a handful of potions made that way.

 

5

My thinking is that an alchemist is used to make potions when hired by a patron outnof a sense of need, not for econmic gain. If you're a minor lord in the hinterlands where the closest real town is a class III market that's two weeks journey away, an alchemist making potions for the lords use may make sense. The lord may not want to keep making two week journey's to the city, and then two weeks back home.

But that leaves us with the question of how would an alchemists make a living? Are there products or services other than making potions that an alchemist could provide with a greater chance of success?

6

I think it’s reasonable to assume that there exist alchemical items that are not full-blown magical potions that can be created by alchemists via the normal production rules (as opposed to the magical research rules).

Somewhere between healing herbs and potions in effectiveness, possibly requiring healing herbs and some amount of other alchemical components to be created. Perhaps with a system of modifying the effect of a healing herb or other base item (like military oil) based on the other components used (and perhaps a proficiency throw may be involved at some point if you want to push it, like by adding a second extra component to increase its power).

7

Like Aryxymaraki mentions, I have presumed that Alchemists make all sorts of things that dont fit in that category of "magical", even things that PCs just wont be particularly interested in like elixeirs and tinctures for things like a common cold relief or fertility (or lack of it), and some they would be interested in like wound cleansing, comfrey salves, anti-poisions or antiseptics.  Essentially fitting the roles that would be seen more as herbalists as well (some may even specialise in a more herbalist role).

They would even create things like military oil, lamp oils, black powder (if you have that), minor trinkets and wards, matches/tindertwigs or all sorts of more mundane but useful or just strange creations.

8

[quote="Jard"]

I don't know if you're in the heroic fantasy kickstarter, but in that alchemy has been modified so that ranks in it are added to your magic research throw to make potions, and it stacks with magical engineering.

[/quote]

That's what I house ruled, but since Alchemy can only be used for potions, you get +2 instead of +1 to the roll.  Also normal folks don't have access to magical engineering so it's a way to get to the magic 6+ roll Koewn mentions

 

[quote="koewn"]

I've been kinda rolling around the postulate that it's the special component requirement, more than cost, time or success rates, that really drive the rarity. The Judge would have to allow that part to be broken before much else would go wrong. The 'maximized' normal market availability in a Class I is about 131 loads per month, which at least gets you to the point where one or more loads (at only 300gp/per) is the monster you need, so even in that extreme case you're only getting a handful of potions made that way.

 

[/quote]

That's a great point that I totally agree with,  I had pretty much decided that there are many possible ways to creat a magical formula.  The potions that were common hit upon that rare critical success that produced such awesome spells as sleep and resulted in common 'special' components.  

As for the market problem, an alchemist would have to make a variety of potions each month (as each potion is a new type of item allowing them to sell more) or rely on commissions.  

 

9

[quote="Loswaith"]

Like Aryxymaraki mentions, I have presumed that Alchemists make all sorts of things that dont fit in that category of "magical", even things that PCs just wont be particularly interested in like elixeirs and tinctures for things like a common cold relief or fertility (or lack of it), and some they would be interested in like wound cleansing, comfrey salves, anti-poisions or antiseptics.  Essentially fitting the roles that would be seen more as herbalists as well (some may even specialise in a more herbalist role).

They would even create things like military oil, lamp oils, black powder (if you have that), minor trinkets and wards, matches/tindertwigs or all sorts of more mundane but useful or just strange creations.

[/quote]

Let's not forget poisons.  I also like the idea that an alchemist can help with processing of certain special components or assist with scroll creation (making magical inks and such). 

Although I love a low magic world (I am playing ACKS after all) I still like the idea of potions as part of a limited magic economy. The idea of a young peasant saving up for that philter of love, the merchant looking for that healing potion to guard against mishap on the road, the spy looking for the sure thing, or the gladiator looking to gain that extra (illegal) edge in the arena makes for good raw adventure material.  Someone has to make those things while the spellcasters are working on their pet magical research.  

I have also reduced the sales cost of 'common' pootions (those I have decided are common) to 500 gp/lvl with the assumption that those potions have commonly availible formulas with  easily obtainiable special components (e.g. ox blood, herbs, etc.) Having a variety of potions availible aid in the creativity of my PCs plans.  Some of the most fun I've had as a DM is watching the creative ways my PCs have used their wits to survive things they had no business survivng.